Emotional Attachment & Smutty Fic

[ithildin]

We discussed this on IM last night, and thought it was worth throwing out for conversation.  My musing is such: I've bought and read some of those 'erotica anthologies', and for the most part, they bore me to tears. So I've been wondering if there's a component of having an attachment to a character that adds to the enjoyment of such fic. As in: I find I enjoy 'adult' fanfic with a character I know and care about more than the 'professional' sorts of stories found in published anthologies. With many of those, it's virtually nameless and faceless and I just don't care enough about the participants for the story to be satisfying on any level.  Obviously, there are exceptions. but generally speaking that seems to be the pattern.

Thoughts?

And here's hoping the other participants of last night's conversation share their thoughts.

Comments

[viridian.livejournal.com]

You know, I think that's likely?

For example, I am bored to TEARS reading 99% of smut out there, even within the fandoms that I read, UNLESS it is a pairing that I really and truly feel for and wanted to see happen in canon. If it DID happen in canon, then there's usually got to be some unsatisfied aspect of it that makes me seek out fic, otherwise I think "eh, why read it when the show already did it?"

And I rarely, RARELY write smut myself unless the pairing really really moves me to. I cannot read smut for smut's sake. It's only interesting if I adore the characters and I believe they have genuine tension there that needs to be fulfilled.

Writing a sex scene is like writing a death scene.......

[dracschick.livejournal.com]

there should be a good reason for both to be written.

Re: Writing a sex scene is like writing a death scene.......

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm more lenient towards sex scenes than death scenes, but that's a pretty good rule. :D

Nope, I feel the same way............

[dracschick.livejournal.com]

1. Not enough backstory to make you care about the characters in the anthologies.

2. I don't like the way some smutty stuff is written these days. I also don't enjoy reading as many four letter words in the anthologies. In my writing, I try to artfully write around that but still keep it erotic.

[black-op.livejournal.com]

Art imitates life...
sexual activity interests us most as participants or witnesses when it is 'so wrong' or 'so right'. If you are at the club and a friend points to two people you don't know and says they just had sex your reactions include 'why should I care?' Same friend points to two people you know who you think should or shouldn't be together it is as they say 'a different story'.

[mischief5.livejournal.com]

I guess my question would be this: if you don't have an emotional attachment to the characters in professionally written erotica, does that make it just porn? And if you do have an attachment to the characters in say, an amateur fanfic that's a PWP, does that elevate the PWP to something more "romantic" just because you know the backstory or is it still just porn?

Where's the line of demarcation for you? For anyone? Emotional attachment? Whether or not the writer is being paid? Plot? Character development?

If it's just two people having sex, why should I care, even if I know the characters? Insert Tab A into Slot B. We're done.

For me, if erotica is to be satisfying, it must be well written and real. Even if it's a PWP, there has to be a point to it somewhere.

Take tryfanstone's "Skin Shot". It's slash. It's shameless, hot porn. But the underlying message is that with every photo described, it could be you. That some Watcher somewhere could be taking photos of you and your lover just to store them away, to be taken out and examined by countless generations of other Watchers. That you, as an Immortal, have no privacy whatsoever. And never will.

That's frightening. And outrageous. No names were mentioned in "Skin Shot". We assumed the writer was talking about Duncan and Methos but it could have been any two Immortals. And any Watcher. It was the forbidden thrill of voyeurism coupled with the inherent threat of stalking plus the nastiness of the archival of the photos that gave meaning to the story.

And that's the connection I need to find erotica satisfying. I don't "need" romance but I do need substance. And that's what's missing from most erotica/porn. No matter what you're writing, you still need to tell the story. If there's no story, why should I care?

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

Take tryfanstone's "Skin Shot".

*Whistles.* Wow, the description alone squicks me on a variety of levels. I'm not even sure if I can pick the worst. I might call it a toss up between "the inherent threat of stalking," and "the nastiness of the archival of the photos." Considering Duncan/Methos can squick me, but it's only a distant factor... guh. I think it does prove that along with my needing "emotional attachment" plot also matters to me, or maybe plot isn't exactly the right word, context? *Nods to self.* Yeah, I think context is better. I can enjoy plot-less romantic sex between characters I care about, and I can enjoy thoroughly unromantic sex between characters I don't much care for if I can see a point to the sex that doesn't totally squick me. ;-b

[mischief5.livejournal.com]

The reason I used "Skin Shot" as an example is that the reader expects PWP porn. The text is there, it's well written and it's guh!hot (if you like slash). Then the subtext hits and it's horrifying. This is what it's like to live as an Immortal among Watchers and most Immortals don't have a clue.

That's the beauty of this story. Tryfanstone doesn't take the easy way out and just write porn. She makes a point. As you said, there's context. When Tryfanstone first posted this story, the comments were all about the sex. No one mentioned the subtext and I thought, "Are you people reading the same story I'm reading?"

Then I thought, of all people, Duncan and Methos had to know they were being Watched. If Joe was still around, he would have been discreet. He would never have taken those photos. So it had to be someone else. But at the end of the story, it implies that the person looking at the photos is Joe and that he's all too aware that he's not the only one Watching Duncan and that he's being watched as well. So he misfiles the photos in the Archives. Holy shit.

So it's slash, it's porn and it made me think. Did it do that for anyone else? I don't know. I didn't see it in the comments.

Text, subtext and context. That's good writing and that will reel me in every time. Do I need an emotional commitment going in? Not if the writer hits me with one on the way out. Even if it scares the shit out of me.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

And that's the connection I need to find erotica satisfying. I don't "need" romance but I do need substance. And that's what's missing from most erotica/porn. No matter what you're writing, you still need to tell the story. If there's no story, why should I care?

Well said. Substance it a good way to put it.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

What is the difference between erotica and porn? Is there one? Probably depends on who you ask. Heh.

See? I'm just trying to inspire you to writing more great reading material for me today [weg]

[mischief5.livejournal.com]

I found this on Wikipedia:

"Erotica (from the Greek language Eros - "love") — are works of art, including literature, photography, film, sculpture and painting, that deal substantively with erotically stimulating or arousing descriptions. Erotica is rather a modern word used to describe the portrayal of human sensuality and sexuality with high-art aspirations, differentiating such work from commercial pornography. Erotica portraying homosexual people is referred to as homoeroticism. (Otherwise known in fandom as slash. *grin*)

"While pornography popularly focuses on unadorned and unemotional lusts and the explicit depiction of sexual acts, erotica tends to define material with a higher emotional content, the development of place, character and story line, or of an overall artistic theme. However, such distinctions are necessarily subjective and may say more about the critic's own tastes on erotic material than the artistic and other attributes of the material itself.

"The division between erotica and pornography is an aesthetic division, usually dependent on moral philosophy, religious dogma, or personal outlook. At present, many legal jurisdictions maintain laws regulating the availability of expressions deemed pornographic (although that term almost never appears in legal texts), arguably to maintain a level of comfort or safety for a majority of citizens.

"It is a notable trait of the strength of the human reproductive drive relative to the psyche as a whole, that unambiguous reference to sexuality, framed in a manner which the perceiver thereof finds acceptable, tends to initiate an involuntary reaction of sexual arousal, possibly building increased sexual desire, which may lead to creating or taking advantage of opportunity to engage in sexual activity. This can be true of erotica just as well as other, both more and less refined references to sex. Depictions of the human body which merely fail to conceal or disguise the secondary sexual characteristics of its particular gender may be all that is necessary to trigger arousal in a person who is attracted to that gender. For this reason, erotica is too broadly described merely in terms of the effect that it engenders in its audience, as all sexually related matter has the potential to create such an effect."

Or in the words of Gloria Leonard, "The difference between pornography and erotica is lighting."

[cyberducks.livejournal.com]

I only read smut fic with characters I am really into. I know some people who love to read certain authors and follow their writing through different characters in different fandoms - but not me. For instance, I may love Chelle's HL erotic fic, but I haven't read a single of her SGA erotic fic - though it's most likely just as well written. When a character really turns me on in a l l ways I want to read how they have sex - if not - I am just not interested.

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

I've been wondering if there's a component of having an attachment to a character that adds to the enjoyment of such fic.

*Raises hand.* For me it is definitely important that I care about the characters involved. However, there's more to it then that. I'm not sure how to explain it... I loved Anita's having sex with Jean-Claude in TKD, and Richard in BM. I care, or in Anita's case cared, about the characters in those scenes, but there was also all the history between the characters -- all the time I'd spent waiting for those moments. Anita's having sex with Micah in NiC? That was strictly a WTF? And, even the sex she had with Jean-Claude and Richard in ID, which sadly was about all I was looking forward to when I started the book, it didn't have much appeal because it was so... hollow.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

It was actually my Anita post from earlier that got me thinking. Because that's the other aspect. I do care about Anita and JC, but the sex in the later books has become mind numbing for me. Like you said -- hollow.

[pat-t.livejournal.com]

Well for me it's real simple. I *have* to care about the characters. Even non fandom related erotica. I need a story - a reason why these two people are doing what they are doing. I need to know who *they* are - they can't just be body parts doing this and that. Which is why I can't just follow the crowd into all these other fandoms. I have to care about the characters and see them that way.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

Take a sex scene written for a short story that's just sex and read it as a stand alone story, or take that same sex scene ad place it in a novel where I've gotten to know the people involved and feel like I have something invested emotionally in the story -- whether good or even bad emotions sometimes -- and I'm going to want to read choice number two.

[jinxed-wood.livejournal.com]

Ah yes, the difference between erotica and porn.

If I had to come up with a definition, I would say it’s related to the objectification of the characters. If the characters involved have substance and depth, even in a short story, it’s erotica. It it’s a case of insert part of body A into part of body B, then it’s porn. Just my opinion, of course.

Erotica interests me, porn doesn’t, it’s as simple as that. I love a good love scene as much as the next gal, but context and character development is a must for me. I need to be emotionally involved.

As for the Anita books, Unlike other people here, I didn’t read them in strict order because I only started reading them a couple of years ago and all the books weren’t available to me at the time. Impatient woman that I am, I just thought ‘Oh, I’ll just skip those few and read the last two’

Ooops

What the hell happened to the plot? Fine, Anita, you’re cursed with need for sex ;-) But does every single encounter have to be written in such loving detail to the detriment of an actual plot. Hasn’t this author heard of ellipses? Doesn’t she know that there is such a thing as too much of a good thing?

Having said all this, there is such a thing as an exception to the rule. For me, that fanfic author is nautibitz, who writes’ Spuffy’porn with such a light handed touch and sense of humour, I can’t help myself!

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

Yes, there's always exceptions to everything. Thankfully :)

What the hell happened to the plot? Fine, Anita, you’re cursed with need for sex ;-) But does every single encounter have to be written in such loving detail to the detriment of an actual plot. Hasn’t this author heard of ellipses? Doesn’t she know that there is such a thing as too much of a good thing?

Oh! You nailed it! That's exactly it. I've told my boss after loaning him the latest books in the series that if you removed all the sex, you'd maybe have a novella left, if that. So if you want to give me all that sex, you need to give me some bones, some foundation, some plot! I know she can do it, she's proved that with the earlier books.

[captnofmyheart.livejournal.com]

A fanfic friend asked me once what I thought of the erotica that is so prevalent in fanfic and I told her that before I wrote it myself, I would have to complete a checklist to make sure that I got in all the perfunctory details...because really, thats what it all seems to be: very formulaic. All one has to do is switch the characters' faces. The rest of it is mind-numbingly the same.

In the fanfic my friend Jo and I have been writing weve been very deliberate in implying what happens, rather than explicit. The closest we came to doing an actual sex scene, both of us demured to euphamism. Which is fine by me. And we've tried to have our characters NOT do the same thing as the others, such as deliberately waiting.

I think you are right though - I have read some wonderful fanfic with sex scenes that were wonderfully done, but because I didnt have an emotional attachment to them, I wasnt as interested or as impressed as I was by the writers for a character that I responded to before in the Original Work.

Sorry that I missed last night's IM conversation. I would have enjoyed that! I managed to erase my MSN IM connection and havent had a chance to hook it back up.

Talk to you soon!

[carenejeans.livejournal.com]

I've been reading far too much mainstream erotica lately, and like you, I'm bored to tears by most of it. With very, very few exceptions.

I'd compare a lot of erotica/porn to science fiction "space opera," where there's a lot of fancy futuristic spaceships and robots and exotic planets and aliens with odd foreheads -- and a story peopled with cardboard characters. Erotica has a lot of naughty sex practices, forbidden liaisons, sparkly costumes and aliens with odd foreheads (okay, I've been reading some Ellora's Cave books) -- and cardboard characters.

The Act is more important than the people Doing It, it seems.

Also, there are no men in it (http://carenejeans.livejournal.com/79239.html). 8-)

There's also something… vaguely squicky about it. I'm not sure exactly what it is, but I just feel, well, dirty after reading through Your Basic Erotica Anthology. And not in a good way, either! Seems like there's a lot of, I dunno, meanness in it? A mean-spirited undercurrent? A sort of Battle of the Sexes skirmishing going on? The most *obvious* squicky plot device is the one I mentioned in my post -- a wife gets "revenge" on her husband by sleeping with his mistress or the baby sitter he's been sleeping with. I read those and think, WTF, do I care about these people? They're idiots.

Sometimes it's not just a matter of not caring about the characters, but a matter of *actively disliking* them.

OTOH, I *have* read and liked sexy fanfic in fandoms I've known nothing about -- and aside from the fact that the stories were *really* good 8-), I think it's because the writer's love of the characters comes through in the story, whether or not *I* love them (yet).

(Must think about this more: how does this work?)

I really want to sort of study published erotica to figure out why I find them so dissatisfying, but it's a hard row to hoe. 8-) The stuff is irritating, but unfortunately not irritating enough to keep me awake.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

I like your space opera comparison. Yes, I keep trying to think more about it as well. I just think of new slants on it all and have to start thinking again.

I don't have any insight into the 'no men in it' aspect, since m/m just doesn't push any of my buttons. But somewhat related to reading sexy fanfic in uncharted waters.... Recently, I read a f/f fic (which does push my buttons in certain cases) that was Firefly, Zoe/River. At first I was, Zoe & River?!?!?! What the? But, I liked the authour's other fic, and I was curious :) Now, I am very familiar with the fandom, though I don't read the fic, but the pairing was something I didn't think I could wrap my brain around. Turned out it was a lovely fic, and I was very glad I took the chance to read it.

If I had a point, I can't recall what it is. More pondering is scheduled, I think :)

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

I'd compare a lot of erotica/porn to science fiction "space opera... The Act is more important than the people Doing It, it seems.

*Nods.* I think you've got something there. "Space opera" I am a junky for unlike the erotica/porn, and I'm not necessarily into it for the characters or plot. It's nice if they're good, but not essential. I'm into it for the, "fancy futuristic spaceships and robots and exotic planets and aliens with odd foreheads." I imagine the people that are into the erotica/porn where the Act is more important are reading it for that.

Sometimes it's not just a matter of not caring about the characters, but a matter of *actively disliking* them.

There's only so much even a story with good substance can do to over come my disliking the characters doin' it.

I think it's because the writer's love of the characters comes through in the story, whether or not *I* love them (yet).

*Nods.* The ability of people to "borrow" other people's love of characters is kind of what I was talking about to mischief5 when I told her, "You didn't get Pirates until the recommendations of friends had gotten you emotionally invested." She "borrowed" her friends' love of the movie to get into it.

[ekaterinn.livejournal.com]

I do agree - it's the characters I'm interested in, and of course, with visual mediums, it's easier to imagine sex scenes with a firm grasp of what they look like. I would also suggest that this is why most of the people writing fanfiction (and particularly het and slash sexual fanfic) tend to be female - we want that connection more than we want just the plain sex. Course, I could be totally off-base...

[darthhellokitty.livejournal.com]

I think I may be the freak in the room here... I frequently read slash in fandoms where I have no interest in the show, or even ACTIVELY DISLIKE the show, because it's hot. The writer is good enough to make a good enough story, with exciting enough sex, that even though I'm not INTO those guys, it's enjoyable to read.

As for pro erotica - that varies big time, almost as much as pro mystery or pro science fiction or whatever. There are the 90% of writers/material that are utter crap (to me), and then there are the 10% who are brilliant. Patrick Califia does it for me every time - possibly because he comes up with things that surprise me - while the "Best Erotica" series tends to be kind of boring and same-y to me.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

Well, there are times when I don't care either, I admit[g] I don't think you're a freak, BTW. Everyone is different, and thank goodness for it!