Emotional Attachment & Smutty Fic

[ithildin]

We discussed this on IM last night, and thought it was worth throwing out for conversation.  My musing is such: I've bought and read some of those 'erotica anthologies', and for the most part, they bore me to tears. So I've been wondering if there's a component of having an attachment to a character that adds to the enjoyment of such fic. As in: I find I enjoy 'adult' fanfic with a character I know and care about more than the 'professional' sorts of stories found in published anthologies. With many of those, it's virtually nameless and faceless and I just don't care enough about the participants for the story to be satisfying on any level.  Obviously, there are exceptions. but generally speaking that seems to be the pattern.

Thoughts?

And here's hoping the other participants of last night's conversation share their thoughts.

Comments

[carenejeans.livejournal.com]

I've been reading far too much mainstream erotica lately, and like you, I'm bored to tears by most of it. With very, very few exceptions.

I'd compare a lot of erotica/porn to science fiction "space opera," where there's a lot of fancy futuristic spaceships and robots and exotic planets and aliens with odd foreheads -- and a story peopled with cardboard characters. Erotica has a lot of naughty sex practices, forbidden liaisons, sparkly costumes and aliens with odd foreheads (okay, I've been reading some Ellora's Cave books) -- and cardboard characters.

The Act is more important than the people Doing It, it seems.

Also, there are no men in it (http://carenejeans.livejournal.com/79239.html). 8-)

There's also something… vaguely squicky about it. I'm not sure exactly what it is, but I just feel, well, dirty after reading through Your Basic Erotica Anthology. And not in a good way, either! Seems like there's a lot of, I dunno, meanness in it? A mean-spirited undercurrent? A sort of Battle of the Sexes skirmishing going on? The most *obvious* squicky plot device is the one I mentioned in my post -- a wife gets "revenge" on her husband by sleeping with his mistress or the baby sitter he's been sleeping with. I read those and think, WTF, do I care about these people? They're idiots.

Sometimes it's not just a matter of not caring about the characters, but a matter of *actively disliking* them.

OTOH, I *have* read and liked sexy fanfic in fandoms I've known nothing about -- and aside from the fact that the stories were *really* good 8-), I think it's because the writer's love of the characters comes through in the story, whether or not *I* love them (yet).

(Must think about this more: how does this work?)

I really want to sort of study published erotica to figure out why I find them so dissatisfying, but it's a hard row to hoe. 8-) The stuff is irritating, but unfortunately not irritating enough to keep me awake.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

I like your space opera comparison. Yes, I keep trying to think more about it as well. I just think of new slants on it all and have to start thinking again.

I don't have any insight into the 'no men in it' aspect, since m/m just doesn't push any of my buttons. But somewhat related to reading sexy fanfic in uncharted waters.... Recently, I read a f/f fic (which does push my buttons in certain cases) that was Firefly, Zoe/River. At first I was, Zoe & River?!?!?! What the? But, I liked the authour's other fic, and I was curious :) Now, I am very familiar with the fandom, though I don't read the fic, but the pairing was something I didn't think I could wrap my brain around. Turned out it was a lovely fic, and I was very glad I took the chance to read it.

If I had a point, I can't recall what it is. More pondering is scheduled, I think :)

[carenejeans.livejournal.com]

don't have any insight into the 'no men in it' aspect, since m/m just doesn't push any of my buttons.

Well, here I mean no there are no men even in *het* stories, which would kind of undermine the point of heterosexual, right? 8-) All het stories all the time don't have to be perfectly balanced between m/f, but as it is, the genre as a whole is way too lopsided in the direction of women's bodies/feelings/etc. I want more men in my het fic! Dammit!!! 8-)

F/F of course, is another thing entirely. That's best served with no men in it. 8-)

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

Sorry, my brain kind of jumped ahead there :) I was thinking of the why slash aspect, which is a whole other topic, but it made me think of the f/f story I'd read, which led me back to fic in uncharted waters. [takes deep mental breath]

I loved spy novels, and when I was in my late teens, I picked up a few at the grocery store to read. They were romances for men! That's how they seemed to me, Lots of sex, but not presented the way it is in books geared to women. It was quite an eye opener for me at the time, not just because I'd never read anything so graphic before.

I have an SF authour on my flist, and a few months back, she wrote a post on why female authours write so many novels with male heros, something she does as well, and she was trying to figure it out since she sees aspects of her writing as 'feminist' (I'm really paraphrasing here since it was months ago I read it) and she was wondering why it was easier to write form a male POV than a female one. When I read your post, it reminded me of that one of hers, but damned if I could find it again.

Me personally, I have written a few sex scenes from the male POV, but writing a sex scene in general makes me a nervous wreck, and doing it form a male perspective is much harder -- for me.

ramble <----------

[carenejeans.livejournal.com]

Not arguing with you (I think)... but it's the *focus* on the female *body* (and feelings, esp. of the ohgodohgodohgod orgasmic kind, heh) *regardless* of male or female POV that fascinates me. Hey, one story I read was written from the POV of a necklace! 8-) And it still focused on the woman's body.

So, if I were to, just as an example, *coff*, write a crossover with Amanda and Jack Sparrow, I would make it a point to not be focusing so much on Amanda's body. I'm not sure which POV I'll write it from (er, I mean *if* I were writing it, heh heh heh heh) but it doesn't matter, the loving lingering description will be focused on his body. Or would. If I were writing it. *looks up and whistles*

I like to write sex scenes, though I agree they're haaaaard. I see them almost as puzzles to figure out -- how can I make this *work*? I don't mean diagrams for tab A and slot B, but "working" in the sense people don't just skim over it.

You know, in all of the original fiction I've written (including three! unfinished! Nanowrimo novels!) the protagoinists are always women. I don't mean to do that, exactly, I just... do. The secondary characters are women, too. In fact, I DO have to make a conscious effort to include men in the stories. Weird, huh?

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

Arguing? Agree? Disagree? Sorry, I've been distracted by the bright shiny of hypothetical Jack/Amanda fic [g]

No, no arguments from me, I'm just doing mental meandering and you're helpfully encouraging me :)

All my original fic has been with female protagonists as well, now I'm thinking about it. Hmm.

As for loving descriptions of Jack's body, I like that sort of thing in what I read in general. I do want to know/see that. And now I think I'm getting a stronger sense of what you're talking about. I think. :) I'm slow, what can I say?

Back to Jack specifically... there's a cut scene on the extras on the DVD when he's on the island with Elizabeth and she wants to know if any of the stories about him are true, and he shows her his scars. I can understand why they cut it, because it was a very serious moment in an otherwise lighter scene, but it's stayed with me as a part of how I see Jack when I write him. His body is a visual journal of the hardships and pain he's suffered in his life. Underneath the silly facade he projects is the real Jack. Another cut scene is again between him and Elizabeth, again serious, and now of course, I realize it foreshadows events in Dead Man's Chest. The scene where he shoots Barbossa, the look in his eyes -- that, for me is the real Jack. I call it his 'Methos moment' [g]

Errr... sorry, I didn't mean to go off on a Jack Sparrow thing there.

[carenejeans.livejournal.com]

We can meander along together.

As for loving descriptions of Jack's body, I like that sort of thing in what I read in general. I do want to know/see that. And now I think I'm getting a stronger sense of what you're talking about. I think. :) I'm slow, what can I say?

No, see, you're not slow. This is a really frustrating topic/issue because it seems to be really slippery and hard to grab hold of. I'll be making notes and thinking, "aha!" I've got you now!" and then a minute later, I'm going, "Okay, where'd that idea go..." I think there IS a FORCE FIELD around it.

But I think I'm becomming appalled, really, that there's this unchallenged "default" that SEX=WOMEN that we can't even see. Or am I missing something? Argh! No, I'm not. I *read* those anthologies!! I know what I seen. With my own two eyes! 8-)

Am still working this out...

Ooooh, thanks for the tip on the extra stuff on the DVD -- I just bought it, and I'm still kind of dumb about extra stuff! Those deleted scenes sound useful great. 8-)

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

Let's see if I am 'getting' it :) Even if a scene is from the woman's perspective, we know how his skin feels under her fingers, the shape of his body, his scent, the way the light plays across his face, the feel of his hair. all the things that make up a real feeling for him as a person, not just some interchangeable guy. All such simple things that are skimped on in many stories, before we even get to actual sex. Written foreplay, maybe Am I warm?

As for the extras on the DVD: I love the island scene, and the 'peas in a pod' scene. Jack has much more depth as a character that gets overlooked with the swaying and the seeming shallowness.

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

I'd compare a lot of erotica/porn to science fiction "space opera... The Act is more important than the people Doing It, it seems.

*Nods.* I think you've got something there. "Space opera" I am a junky for unlike the erotica/porn, and I'm not necessarily into it for the characters or plot. It's nice if they're good, but not essential. I'm into it for the, "fancy futuristic spaceships and robots and exotic planets and aliens with odd foreheads." I imagine the people that are into the erotica/porn where the Act is more important are reading it for that.

Sometimes it's not just a matter of not caring about the characters, but a matter of *actively disliking* them.

There's only so much even a story with good substance can do to over come my disliking the characters doin' it.

I think it's because the writer's love of the characters comes through in the story, whether or not *I* love them (yet).

*Nods.* The ability of people to "borrow" other people's love of characters is kind of what I was talking about to mischief5 when I told her, "You didn't get Pirates until the recommendations of friends had gotten you emotionally invested." She "borrowed" her friends' love of the movie to get into it.

[mischief5.livejournal.com]

Actually, the only reason I bought "Pirates" was to get Ith, Ducky, Kim and Jenni off my back.

"I hate Johnny Depp."

"You'll love Pirates!"

"I. Hate. Johnny. Depp."

"Oh, please? It's so funny!"

"Shaddup already."

"There's this one scene..."

"Grrrr!"

"Just buy it and you'll see!"

"Will you shut up if I buy it?"

"Will you watch it?"

"Yes. Fine. Whatever."

Then I had to eat crow and listen to the chorus of "I told you so's" when it turned out that I did love it. Sheesh. I haven't given in to peer pressure since junior high.

VBEG.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

In my defense, I didn't really realize you hadn't seen it till you told me you saw it. Or something like that [g]

Did I tell you I didn't think I liked Johnny Depp? In fact, I was so bummed when I heard he'd been cast on POTC. Well, I'll admit, I was wrong wrong wrong. Now, I've gone back and watched a lot of what he's done and I'm a huge fan. Even the odd arty things like
"The Man Who Cried". Don Juan DeMarco is a joy to watch, and I'm also very fond of Chocolat.

(I'll use my Depp icon)

[mischief5.livejournal.com]

Actually, that was mostly Kim and Jenni. :) But with you and Ducky such big fans as well, I finally gave in. Kim and Jenni have a tendency to talk me into all kinds of things. X-Men for one. I watched those because Jenni is a huge fan of Hugh Jackman but just couldn't get into them. They were okay but that's about it. They keep talking up Smallville as well but other than making a Superman baby quilt for Kim's new baby, I'm not going there.

And I still hate Johnny Depp. *grin*

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

That's okay, I love him enough for both of us :)