Emotional Attachment & Smutty Fic

[ithildin]

We discussed this on IM last night, and thought it was worth throwing out for conversation.  My musing is such: I've bought and read some of those 'erotica anthologies', and for the most part, they bore me to tears. So I've been wondering if there's a component of having an attachment to a character that adds to the enjoyment of such fic. As in: I find I enjoy 'adult' fanfic with a character I know and care about more than the 'professional' sorts of stories found in published anthologies. With many of those, it's virtually nameless and faceless and I just don't care enough about the participants for the story to be satisfying on any level.  Obviously, there are exceptions. but generally speaking that seems to be the pattern.

Thoughts?

And here's hoping the other participants of last night's conversation share their thoughts.

Comments

[viridian.livejournal.com]

You know, I think that's likely?

For example, I am bored to TEARS reading 99% of smut out there, even within the fandoms that I read, UNLESS it is a pairing that I really and truly feel for and wanted to see happen in canon. If it DID happen in canon, then there's usually got to be some unsatisfied aspect of it that makes me seek out fic, otherwise I think "eh, why read it when the show already did it?"

And I rarely, RARELY write smut myself unless the pairing really really moves me to. I cannot read smut for smut's sake. It's only interesting if I adore the characters and I believe they have genuine tension there that needs to be fulfilled.

Nope, I feel the same way............

[dracschick.livejournal.com]

1. Not enough backstory to make you care about the characters in the anthologies.

2. I don't like the way some smutty stuff is written these days. I also don't enjoy reading as many four letter words in the anthologies. In my writing, I try to artfully write around that but still keep it erotic.

Writing a sex scene is like writing a death scene.......

[dracschick.livejournal.com]

there should be a good reason for both to be written.

[black-op.livejournal.com]

Art imitates life...
sexual activity interests us most as participants or witnesses when it is 'so wrong' or 'so right'. If you are at the club and a friend points to two people you don't know and says they just had sex your reactions include 'why should I care?' Same friend points to two people you know who you think should or shouldn't be together it is as they say 'a different story'.

[mischief5.livejournal.com]

I guess my question would be this: if you don't have an emotional attachment to the characters in professionally written erotica, does that make it just porn? And if you do have an attachment to the characters in say, an amateur fanfic that's a PWP, does that elevate the PWP to something more "romantic" just because you know the backstory or is it still just porn?

Where's the line of demarcation for you? For anyone? Emotional attachment? Whether or not the writer is being paid? Plot? Character development?

If it's just two people having sex, why should I care, even if I know the characters? Insert Tab A into Slot B. We're done.

For me, if erotica is to be satisfying, it must be well written and real. Even if it's a PWP, there has to be a point to it somewhere.

Take tryfanstone's "Skin Shot". It's slash. It's shameless, hot porn. But the underlying message is that with every photo described, it could be you. That some Watcher somewhere could be taking photos of you and your lover just to store them away, to be taken out and examined by countless generations of other Watchers. That you, as an Immortal, have no privacy whatsoever. And never will.

That's frightening. And outrageous. No names were mentioned in "Skin Shot". We assumed the writer was talking about Duncan and Methos but it could have been any two Immortals. And any Watcher. It was the forbidden thrill of voyeurism coupled with the inherent threat of stalking plus the nastiness of the archival of the photos that gave meaning to the story.

And that's the connection I need to find erotica satisfying. I don't "need" romance but I do need substance. And that's what's missing from most erotica/porn. No matter what you're writing, you still need to tell the story. If there's no story, why should I care?

[cyberducks.livejournal.com]

I only read smut fic with characters I am really into. I know some people who love to read certain authors and follow their writing through different characters in different fandoms - but not me. For instance, I may love Chelle's HL erotic fic, but I haven't read a single of her SGA erotic fic - though it's most likely just as well written. When a character really turns me on in a l l ways I want to read how they have sex - if not - I am just not interested.

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

I've been wondering if there's a component of having an attachment to a character that adds to the enjoyment of such fic.

*Raises hand.* For me it is definitely important that I care about the characters involved. However, there's more to it then that. I'm not sure how to explain it... I loved Anita's having sex with Jean-Claude in TKD, and Richard in BM. I care, or in Anita's case cared, about the characters in those scenes, but there was also all the history between the characters -- all the time I'd spent waiting for those moments. Anita's having sex with Micah in NiC? That was strictly a WTF? And, even the sex she had with Jean-Claude and Richard in ID, which sadly was about all I was looking forward to when I started the book, it didn't have much appeal because it was so... hollow.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

It was actually my Anita post from earlier that got me thinking. Because that's the other aspect. I do care about Anita and JC, but the sex in the later books has become mind numbing for me. Like you said -- hollow.

Re: Writing a sex scene is like writing a death scene.......

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm more lenient towards sex scenes than death scenes, but that's a pretty good rule. :D

Re: Writing a sex scene is like writing a death scene.......

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

I have killed off characters before, but it was for a reason. It had to happen. I don't think it was senseless. I cried when I did it because I didn't want her to die, but.... And if what I'm reading (or watching ) makes me feel the same, then I can deal.

I end up writing a lot of sexy stuff too.......

[dracschick.livejournal.com]

since I write vampires and also, I enjoy writing erotica:)

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

Take tryfanstone's "Skin Shot".

*Whistles.* Wow, the description alone squicks me on a variety of levels. I'm not even sure if I can pick the worst. I might call it a toss up between "the inherent threat of stalking," and "the nastiness of the archival of the photos." Considering Duncan/Methos can squick me, but it's only a distant factor... guh. I think it does prove that along with my needing "emotional attachment" plot also matters to me, or maybe plot isn't exactly the right word, context? *Nods to self.* Yeah, I think context is better. I can enjoy plot-less romantic sex between characters I care about, and I can enjoy thoroughly unromantic sex between characters I don't much care for if I can see a point to the sex that doesn't totally squick me. ;-b

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

And that's the connection I need to find erotica satisfying. I don't "need" romance but I do need substance. And that's what's missing from most erotica/porn. No matter what you're writing, you still need to tell the story. If there's no story, why should I care?

Well said. Substance it a good way to put it.

Re: Writing a sex scene is like writing a death scene.......

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

I have killed off characters before, but it was for a reason.

Heh, I'm really touchy when it comes to character death. I know I wrote out a whole long rant about it for a friend in an email once, but I don't think I've put it in my LJ. The thing I remember from the rant is, "If you've got a cast of 10 characters, and you kill 4 you are more virulent than the Black Death." I meant it mathematically based on the claim the Black Death killed a third of the population of Europe.

For a character I care about I absolutely require a writer make me completely believe the character's death is necessary, and frankly I know sometimes even when they succeed I'm still mad at them because I still feel that they as the "god" of their world manufactured that "necessary" situation. Now, for a character I hate I'm equally capable of wishing them dead anytime anyway. Dropping them down an open elevator shaft? No problem. Go for it!

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

Because that's the other aspect.

*Nods.* Yeah, I'm not exactly sure how mischief5's "substance" and my "context" relate, but I do know that while there is a lot of sex in the Merry Gentry books it's different to me from the sex in the later Anita books, and it isn't all my caring about who Merry's having sex with because I definitely don't care about every person she's had sex with. It's... to me... a lot of the later ABVH sex is just there while Merry is generally doing more than having sex whether it's consolidating some part of the power she has or maneuvering for more. It's a tool Merry's using rather than something unfortunate she's doing. If that makes any sense. X_X

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

It's a complicated topic, which was why I brought it up last night, and why it seemed like something that would be interesting to delve a little deeper into. I think both context and substance play into it in varying degrees.

[mischief5.livejournal.com]

The reason I used "Skin Shot" as an example is that the reader expects PWP porn. The text is there, it's well written and it's guh!hot (if you like slash). Then the subtext hits and it's horrifying. This is what it's like to live as an Immortal among Watchers and most Immortals don't have a clue.

That's the beauty of this story. Tryfanstone doesn't take the easy way out and just write porn. She makes a point. As you said, there's context. When Tryfanstone first posted this story, the comments were all about the sex. No one mentioned the subtext and I thought, "Are you people reading the same story I'm reading?"

Then I thought, of all people, Duncan and Methos had to know they were being Watched. If Joe was still around, he would have been discreet. He would never have taken those photos. So it had to be someone else. But at the end of the story, it implies that the person looking at the photos is Joe and that he's all too aware that he's not the only one Watching Duncan and that he's being watched as well. So he misfiles the photos in the Archives. Holy shit.

So it's slash, it's porn and it made me think. Did it do that for anyone else? I don't know. I didn't see it in the comments.

Text, subtext and context. That's good writing and that will reel me in every time. Do I need an emotional commitment going in? Not if the writer hits me with one on the way out. Even if it scares the shit out of me.

[mischief5.livejournal.com]

If this helps, "context" is the framework within which the writer operates. It's the information the reader needs in order to make a connection with the characters. Backstory, setting, descriptions, mood, etc. "Substance" is information that gives context weight and depth. This may be the author's "voice", the characters' "voices", suggestions of moral values (or lack thereof), actions, reactions, and the reasons for them.

The more context and substance the writer provides, the more satisfied the reader will be. And vice versa. The best writers are those who can provide text, subtext, context and substance with as few words as possible, making every word count. Never underestimate your readers' imaginations; they are more than capable of filling in the blanks. *grin*

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

That's good writing and that will reel me in every time.

If the subtext went completely missed by everyone else or completely missed by everyone that commented I'm not sure how accurate it is to say Tryfanstone made a point. It's accurate to say she made you think, but if only you "got it"... Also, you originally said the story could be any two Immortals, but here you are talking about it as Duncan/Methos with the Watcher being Joe. If it could be any two Immortals, you're projecting onto the story.

Do I need an emotional commitment going in?

I don't know about "going in", but yf you care about Duncan/Methos and project that pairing on a story that could be about any two Immortals it seems you do need an emotional commitment. ;)

[pat-t.livejournal.com]

Well for me it's real simple. I *have* to care about the characters. Even non fandom related erotica. I need a story - a reason why these two people are doing what they are doing. I need to know who *they* are - they can't just be body parts doing this and that. Which is why I can't just follow the crowd into all these other fandoms. I have to care about the characters and see them that way.

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

If this helps...

I'm not sure if it does. It sounds as if, with those definitions of those terms, when I say, "I can enjoy plot-less romantic sex between characters I care about, and I can enjoy thoroughly unromantic sex between characters I don't much care for if I can see a point to the sex that doesn't totally squick me," that with the characters I care about it's the context that's the important thing while with the characters I don't much care for it's the substance that's the important thing to me.

Never underestimate your readers' imaginations

I would think if it's up to the reader to fill out a story with their imagination then "virtually nameless and faceless" erotica simply leaves the reader lots of space to fill.

[jinxed-wood.livejournal.com]

Ah yes, the difference between erotica and porn.

If I had to come up with a definition, I would say it’s related to the objectification of the characters. If the characters involved have substance and depth, even in a short story, it’s erotica. It it’s a case of insert part of body A into part of body B, then it’s porn. Just my opinion, of course.

Erotica interests me, porn doesn’t, it’s as simple as that. I love a good love scene as much as the next gal, but context and character development is a must for me. I need to be emotionally involved.

As for the Anita books, Unlike other people here, I didn’t read them in strict order because I only started reading them a couple of years ago and all the books weren’t available to me at the time. Impatient woman that I am, I just thought ‘Oh, I’ll just skip those few and read the last two’

Ooops

What the hell happened to the plot? Fine, Anita, you’re cursed with need for sex ;-) But does every single encounter have to be written in such loving detail to the detriment of an actual plot. Hasn’t this author heard of ellipses? Doesn’t she know that there is such a thing as too much of a good thing?

Having said all this, there is such a thing as an exception to the rule. For me, that fanfic author is nautibitz, who writes’ Spuffy’porn with such a light handed touch and sense of humour, I can’t help myself!

[mischief5.livejournal.com]

First, I don't know that the subtext was missed by other readers, only that no one (including me) commented on it. I'll have to ask Jay if anyone did mention it elsewhere or later.

Second, I said "No names were mentioned...it could have been any two Immortals..." The implied anonymity used in the story emphasized the invasion of privacy (at least to me) as did the authorial voice that spoke directly to the reader, ie: the viewer of the portfolio of photos. This device indicated that a) the reader/viewer knew the two men and so no names were necessary and b) the reader/viewer was seeing the photos for the first time; therefore he was not the photographer.

The descriptions of the men in the photos, however, led the readers to assume that the writer was talking about Duncan and Methos so there was no projection on my part or anyone else's. It was also fairly clear that the man who was looking at the photos was Joe. That may be wishful thinking, but the fact that he hid the photos indicated to me that he had an emotional investment in those two men. The only Watcher we know who meets that criteria is Joe. Ergo, my assumption. Again, I'll have to ask Jay if that assumption was correct.

Do I need an emotional commitment going in? Absolutely not. If I did, I'd never buy another book or DVD. I didn't start watching SG1 until after I'd read several well written fanfics that had been recommended to me. I don't care for Johnny Depp but Ith and several other LJ pals rec'd Pirates so often that I finally bought the DVD and liked it well enough to go see the sequel. So, no, I don't. But a good storyteller will always keep me coming back for more. :)

[mischief5.livejournal.com]

Part one: Yes, that's it exactly.

Part two: That statement only applies to good writing. As I said, if you have text, subtext, context and substance, you have the basics of good writing. If any of that is lacking, you'll leave your readers dissatisfied and/or bored. Tab A + Slot B = WTF? Lazy writing is lazy writing whether it's "nameless and faceless erotica" or "The DaVinci Code".

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

What is the difference between erotica and porn? Is there one? Probably depends on who you ask. Heh.

See? I'm just trying to inspire you to writing more great reading material for me today [weg]