ithildin | A Little More Who/Donna Stuff

I realized why my annoyance seemed so familiar: Nick getting LaCroix to wipe Tracy's memories of Vachon's death after 'Ashes to Ashes'. I really hated Nick for that.

And I still don't think it makes any sense. Maybe her family won't talk about it, but what about all the time she's been gone and what will her friends say? It's just there's so many other things they could have done, but they settled for a memory wipe. Very weak storytelling IMHO.

A bit later as I continue to ponder...

It would have been better to put her in a situation where she wakes up and they tell her she was in an accident and do the 'you have amnesia' thing. I still would have thought it was crap, but it would hold up better than what they ended up doing.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

I'm just wondering how she's going to avoid remembering ANYTHING. Esp. with the Daleks being on a fricking NEWS now. Isn't that sure to spark SOMETHING since it was the last major deal she went through with the Doctor? What if somebody brings up the wedding? Or the past two Christmases or ... I don't know how it's POSSIBLE! Are Wilf and Sylvia going to put Donna into a cell and keep her isolated for the rest of her life? These things are out there, people are talking about them and any one could fire up a memory inside of her. RTD, WTF?

Yeah, the more I thought about it, the sillier it got. Enough holes to drive trucks through.

At least they brought that up in the show as a problem and gave a 'canon' response rather than just totally ignoring the possibility.

You want craters for plot holes? How far back does the mind-wipe go? All the way to HC Clements? What does that mean in terms of the fiance and the wedding that didn't happen? I mean really!!!???

It's worse - continuity wise - than Jack's inflammable, indestructible great-coat.

[nods] Will she still think she's engaged? My brain hurts the more I think about it.

Yeah, Jack should patent that nifty fireproof fabric! Not to mention his hair [g]

How far back does the mind-wipe go? All the way to HC Clements?

Yeah, what happened after she "turned right"? Or was she never in the car to make a decision to turn either way?

It's worse - continuity wise - than Jack's inflammable, indestructible great-coat.

I always assumed that, while the coat looked like a WW2 army coat, it was in fact fabricated with 51st century fabric [hand waves, hand waves]

To paraphrase myself - This is New Who; they don't do plot, they do wooby :-P

And I still don't think it makes any sense.

Heh. *Gets tin hat in place.* I have decided a) since the Doctor stated the Time Lord-human hybridization had never happened before, and b) it was demonstrated repeatedly that Time Lord!Donna was brighter than both "skinny boys" put together, she faked her whole "oh God your mind wiping me, look at me I've been mind wiped," to let Time Lord!Doctor feel both of the Time Lord-human hybrids were neutralized. He thinks human!Doctor is safely stuck on parallel Earth, and Time Lord!Donna is safely mind wiped. Silly Doctor.

I mean, honestly, Rusty wanted us to believe human-Time Lord hybrids being stable and unstable at the same time which I don't buy. Either human!Doctor should've been unraveling like Donna or Time Lord!Donna should've been stable. I like the idea of Rose being safely packed off to an HEA with her human!Doctor so I'm thinking Time Lord!Donna was stable and played both Davros, and the other Doctors. :D

Heh, but sometimes it gets grubby and "battle damaged" and sometimes it doesn't? I figured it was like with Superman's costume, sometimes it's covered under the "indestructible/fixed point" clause, and sometimes it ain't.

I like that theory!

Heh.

Thanks! Rusty's wanting to have it both ways drove me nuts first watching the episode so I had to think of how to reconcile the two. Thinking on how much Time Lord!Donna knew of the Doctor, it felt to me like it made the most sense to believe she acted first in the best way to sucker Davros into ignoring her then in the best way to make it easy for Time Lord!Doctor to let her go. Time Lord!Doctor couldn't cope with the hybrids anymore than he could cope with Immortal!Jack or his daughter Jenny. Donna knew that from what she knew of him, and from having seen him with Jenny.

I APPROVE OF THIS THEORY.

Time Lord!Doctor couldn't cope with the hybrids anymore than he could cope with Immortal!Jack or his daughter Jenny. Donna knew that from what she knew of him, and from having seen him with Jenny.

And we know from his travels with Adric, Nyssa and Romana, it drives him nuts to have someone just as or more clever than him* in the TARDIS for more than ten minutes. He can't lord his knowledge over them and he has to, like, formulate arguments which consist of more than "BECAUSE I'M THE DOCTOR - THAT'S WHY!"

*And Zoe! How could I forget Zoe!

Yay! *Does happy dance.* I knew watching Donna plead with the Doctor to not mind wipe her you had to be in tears watching it. It was another reason, besides hating Rusty's wanting to have it both ways, I had to explain for myself how the two human-Time Lords could seem to be acting so differently without being that different. I mean sure they came from different base stock -- human!Doctor came from a Time Lord's hand and Time Lord!Donna came from a human -- but they were both hybrids. That Donna isn't just some Bad Wolf!Rose redux with too much knowledge in her head. She's a hybrid. The Doctor said it's never happened before. If it's never happened before then no one can know for certain exactly how it works. And Time Lord!Donna was really bright. ;)

Woah, I didn't even think of that! She could've been mimicking him so hard before she started to act like she was melting down to get him that extra aggravated so he'd be less likely while he was poking around in her head to notice he was getting played. >:)

God, you wouldn't believe how hard I was crying during the last ten minutes. Openly SOBBING. I hardly ever do that with a TV series. In fact, the last time I did was the series finale for Six Feet Under, yet that was much more serious crying and I couldn't function properly for a couple of days. Still, that was the last time I was that upset over a TV show.

I can't express how happy this theory/explanation of yours makes me. I was pissed all night over, "Well, if DonnaDoctor can't exist, then WHY is the Human!Doctor not blowing a gasket? WHY DOES DONNA HAVE TO GET MIND-WIPED?" And, I'm sorry, Donna's awesome would've so counter-acted the Doctor's awesome. His awesome is in just knowing technical crap, her awesome is far, far, well, AWESOMER. But you're right - the prophecies from everyone said, "You will become something new." Which she still is. (I have this suspicion her ring would be a key to her remembering, like its her personal fob-watch. They focused way too much on it during the regen scene and the very end, when she was on the phone.) And it's all the more satisfying if she'd pulled a fast one on him. He thinks he's so bloody clever and she has his clever plus her human awesome - The Doctor will be PWNED!

God, you wouldn't believe how hard I was crying during the last ten minutes. Openly SOBBING.

*Hugs.* I understand. Rusty crushed me twice over with his treatment of Jack in "The Parting of the Ways". I'm sure I didn't get as attached to Martha and Donna as I might have if he hadn't both killed and abandoned Jack in TPOTW. I'm so sorry Rusty hurt you like he did.

I can't express how happy this theory/explanation of yours makes me.

*Smiles.* I'm really glad this helps make up for how Rusty made you feel.

But you're right - the prophecies from everyone said, "You will become something new." Which she still is.

*Nods.* Just this afternoon I've had a couple of more thoughts about how hybrid!Donna could be so much more then the Bad Wolf!Rose redux people seem to be talking about her as. 1) The glowy eye business that they showed while Donna was claiming it took Davros' zap to kick her brain into gear could've been Time Lord healing in action. I still believe Jenny healed on her own, not from the terra forming energy. 2) There was lots of talk about human!Doctor only having one heart, but no discussion of whether or not Time Lord!Donna had one heart or two. ;)

The Doctor will be PWNED!

Oh, hell's yes! The more I think about it the more I think Donna was playing him from the moment of hybridization. She got human!Doctor going so that he realized he sounded like her, and checked how many hearts he had. Donna waited in the TARDIS while human!Doctor charged out to face Davros, then came out and played the bumbling human companion so that Davros just zotted her instead of confining her like everyone else. She was totally in control of things from the beginning. :D

... Thank you. I'm reading over my morning coffee and I needed that laugh :D

(I have this suspicion her ring would be a key to her remembering, like its her personal fob-watch. They focused way too much on it during the regen scene and the very end, when she was on the phone.)

At the end of 'Last of the Time Lords', wasn't the Master's ring picked up by a female hand? Just sayin'. 0:}

[G] I aim to please :-P

At the end of 'Last of the Time Lords', wasn't the Master's ring picked up by a female hand? Just sayin'. 0:}

True, but beside the point. Donna didn't just become "a Time Lord" she became a "Doctor-Donna" hybrid. The Master's ring, used to create another version of the Master, would create another version of the Master. Time Lord!Donna was the Doctor only better. Two versions of Ten played by David Tennant, and they were both asking her where she was getting her ideas. Catherine Tate was amazing, and seeing David play both versions of the Doctor maybe be the most fun I've had watching him in his three seasons on Doctor Who. *Ponders that.* I frankly wasn't getting the obsessive need of some fans for Donna to be the Master before the finale, and Donna being not just Super!Donna, but Super!Doctor was a blast. Hell, the teasing minx started to tell him how to fix the chameleon circuit before she started to act like she was breaking down on him.

OK, but I was just making the connection between rings-as-plot-devices, since you mentioned Donna's.

I guess it was a slightly awkward way of saying 'hey you could be right'.

Oh. *Blushes.* Sorry for being overly sensitive, Panth. Donna was hearing a heart beat in the episode before, and there were people who were insisting it was The Drums and "ZOMGAWD Donna is so totally the Master" so I overreacted. Accept scantily clad Peter Wingfield as apology?

Scantily clad Peter makes everything better *hugs*

I know what you mean hon, about some parts of fandom banging on about something until you're ready to scream ;}.

Oh yes.

He definitely can't stand it when there's someone who is just as capable or moreso in the room with him. He HAS to be the ONLY ONE who can sort anything out. He seemed a bit miffed Donna was pulling all kinds of AWESOME stuff out like it wasn't no thang, didn't he? A human/Doctor hybrid based in Donna was way too much awesome for the TARDIS and he couldn't be havin' that! BUT SHE FOOLED HIM!

BTW, I've been showing this theory around to others who're outraged and they're accepting it as their personal canon. lol. :D

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. *grins*

That would be awesome. Somebody needs to write this ~~canon~~ fic, stat!

A human/Doctor hybrid based in Donna was way too much awesome for the TARDIS and he couldn't be havin' that! BUT SHE FOOLED HIM!

I've been thinking more about there having been talk about human!Doctor only having one heart but no discussion of whether or not Time Lord!Donna had one heart or two.

I think she could've had two hearts. It's possible the heart beat Donna heard wasn't Human!Doctor's but her own second heart beating. With Jenny Donna had to get him to listen to Jenny's two hearts with a stethoscope before he'd acknowledge she had two hearts. Time Lord!Donna could've let Human!Doctor carry on about only having one, and the heart beat she heard having been his knowing she had two. It was said Time Lord!Donna was half Doctor half Donna. Too me half says having more than just his brains. Plus, if Human!Doctor and Time Lord!Donna swapped things and he got the single heart, then she must have gotten the double. ;)

BTW, I've been showing this theory around to others who're outraged and they're accepting it as their personal canon. lol. :D

Cool! Er, I'm glad to know it's making others who're outraged feel better too.

BTW, having been doing so much thinking about Human!Doctor and Time Lord!Donna, it's occurred to me you were right about it being the hand who was "the most faithful companion doomed to everlasting death." Donna, even at face value isn't dead, fucked up and over, but not dead. The hand, however, got reduced from being fully Time Lord to human, unable to regenerate, stuck growing old and dying. That's "everlasting death" in RTD's little world. :D

Scantily clad Peter makes everything better. *hugs*

Yay! *Supplies some more for good measure.*

I know what you mean hon, about some parts of fandom banging on about something until you're ready to scream ;}.

Thanks, they wore me down.

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter. *grins*

*Blushes.* If I were more organized and braver, I'd collect my ideas together in one essay and post them somewhere they could get shredded by people who don't want to hear any of my ideas. Instead, I just continue to clutter up Ith's journal with all these ideas.

That would be awesome.

Thanks.

Somebody needs to write this canon fic, stat!

Uuuh, see above statement about lack of organization and bravery? *Bats eyelashes and scampers off.*

Popping in again -

Donna said that it was the zap from Davros that kicked in her 'time lord' brain. What if it also kicked in her second heart? Properly, I mean, instead of just the occasional 'thumpity' she was hearing?