ithildin | Ficcy Fandom Things

In the course of reorganizing my Delicious bookmarks/tags over the last few weeks, I've also been doing a lot of reading along the way. One of the things I read was a series of M7 ATF stories that I quite enjoyed. What brought me up short though was on reaching about 2/3s into the series, I discover from the authour's notes that she' only ever seen one episode of Magnificent Seven. So I assume she got her knowledge strictly from fic, which is really odd to me. I normally won't even contemplate writing fic unless I've seen the series through at least once, and usually twice. Or in the case of a show currently on the air -- which doesn't happen often -- reviewing episodes. I can't imagine writing fic in a fandom where I'd never seen the show. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it, but it's just interesting to me since it's totally the opposite of how I tend to think of fic and fandom.

Which brings me to fanon! One of the other things I came across along the way was an authour who had compiled a fanon versus canon page. It reminded me of something I'd thought of before and was going to post about, but forgot. All fandoms have such quirks, but I think I probably notice it more in M7 since I'm coming into it ten years after the show's been off the air, as opposed to Highlander which I was in from from the beginning. As a writer, I find myself wondering if I need to incorporate fanon into my stories to make my M7 fic more accessible/enjoyable to readers. Since I only saw the show recently, then started reading fic, I still find a lot of the fanon content of stories can take me out of the story simply because the series is new and fresh in my mind. Things that immediately leap to mind are Josiah constantly calling Ezra 'son' and him acting like he's some sort of father figure to him, or Chris frequently being physically violent towards Ezra. The abuse Ezra takes from Chris and Nathan in many fics makes me wonder how on earth he could stay or ever trust them afterward. There's a bunch more, but those are my main two head scratchers.

So anyway, back to my question [g] If you write fic, do you ever feel as if you need to go with popular fanon when you write or do you stick to canon as you see it as much as you can?

Question two: as a reader, do you prefer to read fic with familiar fanon content, or do you prefer more canonical fic?

And last: what are some fanon/canon things in your fave fandoms? Which ones do you hold true in your personal fanon canon and which ones make you twitch?

Yes three questions! I'm very demanding!

ETA: in the case of M7 I'm talking strictly about Old West fic. I love ATF fic, but it is its own universe and for me at least, has more leeway since it's a modern day AU.

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Interesting questions! I prefer canon over fanon--I'll have to say in most cases, because although I can't remember ever preferring a fanon choice I have to admit I might have.

And I'm stubborn, which you might have noticed... ;). I don't adopt fanon to make a fic accessible; I write a fic the way I feel it should be written. I've had comments that I write Methos darker than some people see him--but I don't think of that as a fanon thing on my part, just as how I interpret what I see.

And I have to admit that I don't really recognize fanon things unless they stand out to me. Not sure why.

Isn't their some fanon involving Ezra's horse?

Yeah, both Ezra and Vin's horses have a large amount of fanon associated with them.

So shall you incorperate any of that into your series?
Ezra and his amazingly clever horse?

[nods] Yeah, my Methos was dark *before* the Horseman reveal [g] So I totally get having a dark Methos.

I think many horses are extremely clever, and it follows that Ezra would probably have a clever horse. That being said, I don't foresee the horse playing any major role -- at this time, at least :)

I am going with the fanon names for the horses, mostly because Casey used Chaucer in that first story, so I followed her lead. I think she's used Peso as well. If she hadn't, I don't know if I would have gone with fanon names or just made up my own.

seeing how right now, i only write Mag 7 ATF, i have to say, fanon :)

although, there is a sort of ATF canon, isn't there? hmmm...

so, i guess i go with generalities (is that a word?), and make them do whatever i wish for them to do. for instance, i like writing JD a little "grittier".

hell, i love gritty. who am i kidding?

I guess I should have specified OW fic. I love ATF fic, but that's a entirely different cup of tea :)

And Ezra would train his horse very well.

If you write fic, do you ever feel as if you need to go with popular fanon when you write or do you stick to canon as you see it as much as you can?

Both, to be honest. I like to make sure that nothing I write actively goes against canon, but at the same time I don't have a problem using popular fandom tropes if they're ones that I agree with. For example, I fell in love with the character of Gaila in the new Star Trek film - who we really know next to nothing about in canon. It's become common in fanon, however, to place her in engineering. Since it doesn't go against canon, I have no problem with it.

Another example, this time actually related to M7, are the names of the guys' horses (as you mentioned below). I have no problem calling Ezra's horse Chaucer or Vin's Peso, simply because I know that most people in the fandom are used to reading those names even if it's not given in the show. The same goes for calling the town Four Corners.

As a reader, do you prefer to read fic with familiar fanon content, or do you prefer more canonical fic?

Um, both. *sheepish grin* What can I say? I have a variety of tastes.

When it comes to characterization based on canon/fanon, such as Josiah being more of a father figure toward Ezra or Nathan and Chris treating him with much less respect than in canon... well, it depends on when the story's set. If the author can give me some background to explain the difference in characterization (which some have done quite well), then I have no problem with it. If it's just there, out of the blue, sometimes I have more trouble buying it.

On the other hand, I have no trouble whatsoever with little canon things like names. And, of course, when it comes to the ATF AU, I'm even less picky simply because "canon" is much harder to define when it's an AU to begin with.

Oh, canon vs fanon, my favorite topic! *there follows a senseless ramble:)*
First of all, I'm an obsessive canonist by default:). I need to establish a lot of background before writing anything, even if a half of said backround won't make it to the text. And this backround should be canon, I'm physically unable to write down something which I can't safely include in canon line:). (What goes in my head is another story:)) When I wrote a Methos/Ceirdwyn fic, I rewrote the begining three times, as I encountered in the Web new details from Watcher CD:).
But, of course there are a lot of background details, omissed in canon; for instance, we know very little about Methos life:). And sometimes there is no point in inventing things that are already invented by someone else:). So, if fanon line of facts merely supplements the canon and doesn't contradict it, and, the important part, it is belivebable, and I don't have my own, better (for whatever reasons) version - then I'll take the fanon facts. But if I can "kill it with disbelief":), I won't take it, no matter how wide it is accepted in fandom:).

As a reader, I'm a canonist, too, but I can really like a fic I don't beleive in at all, if it contains plot lines I like or something. And no matter, canon, fanon or AU, the text should be logical and uncontradictable itself:). And real history/reality/common sense are important, too:).

Well, I bet you know HL fandom better than me:), and Mag7 is an exception from all rules:), but if you are interested in some fanon/canon points in Russian-speaking Tolkien (mostly Silmarillion) fandom....:).

I've edited the post to clarify I was referring to OW fic as opposed to ATF, since I forgot first time around :)

I'm the same, it really depends. In the case of characters we know next to nothing about, giving them a fanon background makes perfect sense and I tend to go along with that. Major characters I'm far more resistant to. Like the Josiah thing, it just irks me a wee bit [g] No idea why, but that's my brain! However, I don't have a problem with it in ATF fic since it's a separate entity universe wise for me. Yeah, I'm weird.

I can't think of anything in fanon about Methos that's something I'd feel compelled to use in fic of my own. I'm actually trying to think of any prevalent fanon on him at all right now actually... Maybe the one where he invented beer? I'm sure someone will remind me of something.

You know, I'm not involved in LotR fandom at all, so I have no idea what you all get up to [g] My LotR fandom world is me and the books and I am content :)

I'm not sure there are such widely accepted facts about Methos, that they can be called fanon, but some stereotypes surely exsist:). Methos starting the Watchers, Methos and Darius friendship (not a word in canon, alas), Methos knowing the Holy Man of Paris and so on.

My LotR fandom world is me and the books and I am content :)
And that's wonderful!:). Besides, Russian Tolkien fandom is completely another story, providing the long adventure of books translation and publication here:). And then there are land-based role-playing games, which take canon/fanon discussions to new dimension:).

Hi! *waves* I saw this on my friends-of-friends list and found it very interesting. I just started reading Mag7 (both ATF and OW) and have been trying to catch up and rewatch the show since I only saw a very of the episodes when it aired back when.

I've read a TON of Mag7 but noticed, as I've been watching the show, while the stories all were very familiar as to what I thought was canon, it was actually fanon. Vin, for example, doesn't have back issues on the show. I know Eric Close added the 'slouch' to allude to scoliosis, but there's no canon back pain that I've found so far. Yet OW (and ATF and Little Britches AUs) frequently bring it up. Ezra does use flowerly language on the show, but not to the extent fanon would suggest.

Absolutely lovely to meet you!

Ezra's extreme aversion to laudanum is one that comes to mind, and him never using the other mens' first names.

Since I still haven't rewatched all the episodes, I had assumed I just hadn't gotten to the part where something became 'canon' but it seems like fanon has just gone off and run with some things, doesn't it?

In a way, it makes sense. There's been 10 years for it grow and develop it's own life. The Doctor Who fandom is a bit like that. And I do wonder if some people have written in Mag7 after only reading or watching the little bit that is up on youtube.

I wonder if some of the entrenched fanon things appeared during the show's original run, or if they were a post show occurrence? Hopefully, one of the old timey fans on my f'list could answer that :)

And I do wonder if some people have written in Mag7 after only reading or watching the little bit that is up on youtube.

At least one, the lady who prompted me to write this post [g] I guess those people would be writing fic about fic.

Sometimes things get absorbed into fanon, without anyone really realizing it isn't really canon. I assume these were things that showed up in one story and then were taken in by another and it just mushroomed.

Yes, but I wonder if there are others. I know I played at comment_fic for Mag7 before I reacquainted myself with the show, justifying my lack of canon knowledge because it was ATFverse and just snippets.

Uh huh, exactly. Not just M7, but any show, if you were a casual viewer with a hazy memory and then you started reading fic, you'd assume those folks knew what they were writing about so when you decided to write fic, you'd follow their lead, and so on and so forth.

More than likely.

So anyway, back to my question [g] If you write fic, do you ever feel as if you need to go with popular fanon when you write or do you stick to canon as you see it as much as you can?

I'm a crossover junkie. While I read "pure" fandoms, I heart crossovers, which pretty much have to establish their own fanon from scratch every time. For the most part I pay no attention to fanon when I write my own--I run with what works for the story.

Question two: as a reader, do you prefer to read fic with familiar fanon content, or do you prefer more canonical fic?

Crossovers, baby. So...fanon, I guess. In the sense that crossing, say, Dead Like Me with Highlander requires establishing that the two universes co-exist. On the other hand, the closer a crossover story hews to the canon version of each universe the easier it is for readers to know what they're getting.

And last: what are some fanon/canon things in your fave fandoms? Which ones do you hold true in your personal fanon canon and which ones make you twitch?

I'm not a slash fan (well, not M/M slash, I likes me some F/F slash), so that particular fanon feature--which is incredibly common--is something I often have to deal with in the pursuit of interesting stories. But it never shows up in my own fic. I only have a couple of personal fanon ideas I hold to.

In any Highlander story (or crossover) I write, Xavier St. Cloud wrote bodice ripper romances under the pen name Robin Masters (Magnum P.I. universe) because it amused him. It may never come up, but it's there in the background.

I love your thoughts about this and they're very interesting. So you shall be bombarded with mine *grins*.

I agree about your head stratchers too. Nathan argues with Ezra sure, but in at least 3 episodes I can think of off the top of my head, he sits with Ezra and jokes with him too. The son thing bugs the hell out of me and canonically, Chris is more violent with Buck than ever with Ezra.

As far as writing fic I do like, unless it's an AU, to have a canon background. I can't speak for Mag7 yet, but with Firefly, I research the placement of the rooms in the ship, the guns, the Chinese, the clothes the characters wear - it's an obsession! :) I do try to keep the characters themselves canon too - though it could be argued that my Jayne is smarter than canon Jayne :D That being said, in all the fandoms I've followed over the years, I've never been interested in the canon pairings. And aside from a little aside of Wash/Zoe or (very) fleeting Mal/Inara, never write them.

Consciously I write what I like and hope that others do too. if not I keep writing anyway - being a perverse type of person.

As a reader I don't mind reading fanon, I'll even read fic that includes some of my squicks; if the story is well written that is. I think people can be too fanatical about canon at times and have participated in fandoms where people who don't write canon are treated badly.

Your last question I could go on and on...But promise you I won't.

In Firefly - River referring to herself as she. *shudders* During the series and Serenity she did this once but some writers constantly use this.

Magnificent Seven - Aside from those things mentioned above, Vin's bad back and Ezra having been everyone's whipping boy (I really can't see this).

Of course the main thing about fanon in Mag7 and Firefly at least; is that it has been around longer than the shows were. There's less canon fodder out there than fanon.

If you write fic, do you ever feel as if you need to go with popular fanon when you write or do you stick to canon as you see it as much as you can?

--I don't feel the pressure to follow fanon or canon, though I do try and keep as close to canon as I can. However, I consider anything written in fanfiction to be AU. So I don't overly concern myself with staying in the lines:)

Question two: as a reader, do you prefer to read fic with familiar fanon content, or do you prefer more canonical fic?

--As long as it is a well written and engaging story I will read it. Sometimes I crave wild story ideas that have nothing in common with the original show. I love to see how an author can use the characters in a new genre.

And last: what are some fanon/canon things in your fave fandoms? Which ones do you hold true in your personal fanon canon and which ones make you twitch?

--Some things that make me twitch...unfinished fics,there are a lot of great fics waiting for an ending. Another thing that really annoys me is crossovers where there are more than 3 fandoms. I end up fast forwarding through the fic to just read the parts that interest me. Lastly I really really really don't like when a fic is OC and most of the story is about the OC and only has guest appearances by the guys. I don't mind OC but I don't want to read a story just based on them, if I wanted to do that I would go read an original work. There has to be at least 65% of the guys dominating the story.

Great questions:)

If you write fic, do you ever feel as if you need to go with popular fanon when you write or do you stick to canon as you see it as much as you can?

Depends totally on the AU I'm writing in, but I try and keep at least the characterizations as close to canon as possible or why would anyone bother reading it? Especially for new AUs, I might as well be writing about bob and jane if not, you know? However some AUs are more fanon than canon based in most things (like Mag7 ATF) and then I go with what's been built by others, editing or whatever for my fic.

As a reader, do you prefer to read fic with familiar fanon content, or do you prefer more canonical fic?

Truthfully, fanon/canon matters less to me than how well written the fic is. I like it to be believable and possible for that AU version of the characters and be at least related to the original canon. But I like slash and that is totally fanon for more than 90% of my fandoms.

What are some fanon/canon things in your fave fandoms? Which ones do you hold true in your personal fanon canon and which ones make you twitch?

Take Harry Potter fics for example, I prefer Draco Malfoy based fics, and if we go by straight canon he's a total prat and not worth having any stories really, so almost all my fave things about him are totally fanon based and very AU.

Mag7 specific tics - I dislike most when Ezra gets treated badly/mistrusted/abused by one of the seven and they say "sorry" then he forgives them and goes right back to being a buddy and does nothing, so annoying and very unrealistic. I would so not put up with a lot of the crap that he gets written dealing with, I'd have left FC/Denver like a cheetah on speed. Also the overly used characterizations of drunkangry!Chris, biasedmean!Nathan, lecturerfatherly!Josiah, stupidlynaive!JD, manwhore!Buck, shyabused!Vin, and greedybastard!Ezra piss me off most of the time, they work in some stories, where the prep work and background support such, but it gets annoying when used in tons of stories like it's canon, and there is almost no canon support for such.

Ok, rant done :D

Crossovers rule! Though I do try and keep each fandom as canonical as I can despite the melding.

And yes, Xavier St. Cloud writing bodice rippers is amusing as all get out :)

We are kindred spirits! Feel free to bombard me anytime.

I too will read fanonee fics -- pretty much have to, right? -- even if parts make me twitchy. Hopefully, there's a great story in amongst the fanon peeves :)

if not I keep writing anyway - being a perverse type of person.

Amen! If I weren't perverse I'd never write a crossover or have an OFC, but I'm cantankerous that way.

Glad you liked the questions!

[whispers] don't ever read my fic -- I have four fandoms in mine LOL

I know what you mean. Back when I was reading HP fic, my thing was Snape/Hermione. I know. But it was!

Seems your tics are very similar to mine.

Rant read an approved [g]

Ah, Snape is great fun in fics. I love the ones by whats-her-name, crossovers with Buffy verse where he gets called 'Cranky Pants' by Willow. It's Snape/Willow...A Drop in the Ocean? arg, gunna bug me now

*heads off to look up fic name and author*

Oooh! I read that when I was in my Snape phase! Great fic. No idea who wrote it or anything, but I remember reading it :)

Mag7 specific tics - I dislike most when Ezra gets treated badly/mistrusted/abused by one of the seven and they say "sorry" then he forgives them and goes right back to being a buddy and does nothing, so annoying and very unrealistic.

Oh God yes! I mean, hes clearly a dangerous SOB, just judging by the amount of fire power he carries and the crazy/brave stunts he pulls. I don't see him as taking that amount of abuse from anyone.

Agree totally on the overly used characterizations as well. I actively search out the ones where the characterization is quite the opposite, or where at the very least the author sets up a believable background.

With fatherly!Josiah, I think the only fic where it worked for me was in NotTasha's Southbridge series, which happens after the show.

My own pet peeve are WIP, especially if I like them. I can wait for a fic to be finished if I know it will be finished, but the author is having some problems, but when it's been several years since the dreaded words, To be continued... appeared, I don't have much hope. :(

Oh I enjoy your Aces Immortal stories:) I don;t really consider it on my twitch list as it is more of a larger series and the other fandoms are brought in slowly. I think aldo your individual stories generally keep with no more than two fandoms in each.
My problem is a single contained story that has all these other characters thrown at me from the beginning. Those are the ones that usually end up having passsages skipped so I can get to the parts I like:)

If you write fic, do you ever feel as if you need to go with popular fanon when you write or do you stick to canon as you see it as much as you can?

It depends on whether I agree with the fanon or not. I'll use the House fandom as an example. I think most readers who've been watching the series for awhile would agree that early!House had a soul somewhere under the orneriness, so I did use that in my fic. On the other hand, it's fanon in the slash part of the fandom that the sexual comments House makes at Wilson are signs that House wants to sleep with Wilson, whereas I see it as House's attempt to alienate Wilson and push him away. So I don't use that fanon in my fics. Although I generally do try to stick as close to canon as possible.

Question two: as a reader, do you prefer to read fic with familiar fanon content, or do you prefer more canonical fic?

Again, it really depends. If it's fanon that I personally buy into, sure. If not, then no, I prefer canonical fic.

And last: what are some fanon/canon things in your fave fandoms? Which ones do you hold true in your personal fanon canon and which ones make you twitch?

Well, I've already spoken about the House fanon. As for SPN fanon, it's my personal fanon that John Winchester was NOT a drunken, abusive asshole, as the rest of fandom prefers to believe. No, he was not a perfect father....but who among us has had perfect parents?

Yes! He is dangerous and smart, and I don't think he'd let the others get away pushing him around, I totally agree.

Oh! I love NotTasha = totally awesome stories. Fatherly!Josiah is usually not my thing, but like you say it's done real well and believable in that series.

Ah, yes the dreaded 20 year WIP. I try not to start any that are WIP unless I know the author still writes, but even then a lot of stories just seem to stay WIPs for a long arse time. Personally I'd never post it unless I have an end scripted out and know where it's going.

I found it! It is called A Drop in the Ocean Part of the Dropverse by Echo.

:nod nod: I think for me, the further away the story gets from the time frame of the series, the easier it is to accept fanon elements. I find it quite possible that relationships change and develop into something else over time, that wasn't there at first.

There are two WiPs that I would LOVE to see finished; alas, the way things are going, that's highly unlikely :(. I hate that as much as I hate a series cliffhanger where authors leave everything open (Prey years ago, and TSCC recently). I hear there've been shows that were canceled, and the creators told the fans what they had planned; that gives you at least some kind of closure.

Oh God yes! I mean, hes clearly a dangerous SOB, just judging by the amount of fire power he carries and the crazy/brave stunts he pulls. I don't see him as taking that amount of abuse from anyone.

That's probably my biggest fanon peeve. And it happens so often in so many fics. All I can say is that Ezra is far more forgiving than I would ever be :)

You know, I never wrote WIPS till I got on LJ. When all my fic was posted via email lists, I always completed it before posting.

Good examples.

Wow, I'm glad I don't really read SPN fic. Didn't realize John was portrayed that way. Wouldn't make me very happy to read.

It helps that Jack is long dead, so he can't pop into the stories, I suppose :)

Exactly I totally agree.

WIPs and early canceled shows are great for the imagination, but I'd rather know how they were going to end things. Then go about rewriting it in my own fashion (in my head or otherwise) to fix things. heh

Didn't realize John was portrayed that way. Wouldn't make me very happy to read.

There's a definite split in the fandom, IMO. The ones who adore Wincest seem to gravitate to the alcoholic!and!abusive!John idea, and those of us that love John usually (understandably) prefer to cut the guy some slack.