The Valkyrie

[ithildin]

Welcome to the twelfth installment of Methos Episode Discussion. You can find the last one, for The Messenger here. All prior episode discussion links can be found over on the sidebar.

The Valkyrie, Air Date: Feb. 1997

In 1944, Ingrid Henning had the chance to kill Adolf Hitler and failed.She's been atoning for that failure ever since by killing dictators,tyrants, racists, and fascists who might have the potential to becomeas dangerous. MacLeod has a chance to stop her before she kills more mortals, but by stopping her, does MacLeod commit the same evil for which he's judged her guilty? ~ recap & quotes via tv.com

Next up will be Comes A Horseman and (perhaps) Revelation 6:8. Look for it/them on Thursday.

Quotes below the curtain





Methos: You okay?
Duncan: Ingrid asked me something before she died.
Methos: They usually do.
Duncan: She said, "What was the difference between her killing them and me killing her?"
Methos: Good question. Right up there with chicken and egg.
Duncan: So what are you saying? There is no answer?
Methos: No, there is an answer. The real question is whether you're ready for it. Stefanovich killed, and Ingrid judged him. Wilkinson killed, and Ingrid killed him. Ingrid killed, and you judged her.
Duncan: So, who judges me?
Methos: You hungry?
________________________

Joe: You know, you really can be an arrogant pain in the ass sometimes.
Methos: Guilty as charged.
________________________

Duncan: You mind telling me what you find funny about all this?
Methos: Not exactly funny, but, uh...pretty entertaining, yeah.
Joe: Just what is so entertaining?
Methos: MacLeod tussling with another of his moral dilemmas.
Duncan: You know there are times I really don't like you.
Methos: That's okay - sometimes I don't like myself.
________________________

(Ingrid Henning enters)
Methos: Time to go.
Duncan: She's a friend.
Methos: Listen, when they carry a sword and I haven't been fully introduced, I get shy.
________________________

Duncan: Since when are you my attorney?
Methos: Whatever you need: lawyer, doctor, Indian chief - I've got paperwork to cover it all.
________________________

Methos: Look at this. It's an exhibition of Greek antiquities.
Duncan: Oh, yeah, I can't wait. A two thousand five hundred year-old garage sale.
Methos: Listen - some of this stuff could be mine.
________________________

Duncan: You're an old cynic.
Methos: I try.
________________________

Comments

[jinxed-wood.livejournal.com]

What I always found interesting about this episode was the contrast between Methos and Le Brun (Interpol guy!)

Firstly, you have Methos who, we later learn, has every reason to encourage Duncan to turn a blind eye to Ingrid's failings but instead encourages him to judge Ingrid for her actions.

Le Brun, on the face of it, seems to agree; but if you listen to him closely, his motives are very different. The son of a dissident poet who was killed, Le Brun has every reason to agree with Ingrid's motives but is reluctant to judge Ingrid, or her target, for their actions. It's as if he is afraid of what the outcome might be.

I couldn't help thinking, shouldn't it be the other way around?

[sophiedb.livejournal.com]

Police are trained to seek out proof of a crime and identify suspects, not to judge. Obviously they have their own opinions, but it'd be hard to get any copper to voice them outside his office until after that case has been heard in court. Maybe that's why Le Brun is so evasive.

There's also the strange fact that while French criminal law does presume innocence until proven guilty (a constitutional right), the opposite was in practice until about 5 years ago. I don't think it was ever stated outright or written into judicial procedure, but the "mood" of court was habitually set against the accused from the very beginning. It was always a touchy subject outside France, because the idea of "innocent until proven guilty" is so ingrained in most democratic countries, and the French government was taken to the International Court of Human Rights in the end.

*scratches head* I think my point was going to be that Le Brun might not be thinking about Ingrid in the same way that another policeman might, regardless of his personal history :)

[jinxed-wood.livejournal.com]

Police are trained to seek out proof of a crime and identify suspects, not to judge. Obviously they have their own opinions, but it'd be hard to get any copper to voice them outside his office until after that case has been heard in court. Maybe that's why Le Brun is so evasive

True, but isn't it also common practice (within an interrogation room) to put emphasis on the suspect's guilt in order to extricate information? I just found the scene in the police station, between le Brun and Duncan, intriguing...

Ah hell, now I have a Le Brun plot bunny running around in my head - all your fault :-)

[macgeorge1.livejournal.com]

Actually, the interpol guy was named Breslaw. Le Brun was the French policeman from Season Two (or three, I forget). I thought he was *wonderfully* played, especially the scene in the bar after Breslaw *thinks* he's killed Ingred. From my own commentar on this wonderful episode:

Breslaw lights a cigarette as a replacement for his toothpick, saying that maybe if he dies a little tonight, “It will even things out between me and God.” Breslaw acknowledges that Wilkinson’s speech is back on, and that “this time he is on his own.” He notes that, “When I was a little boy, everything was black and white, good and evil, you see. Then I grew up and discovered that there was only gray,” and apologizes for killing Duncan’s friend. Duncan tells him he did what he had to do, that the Ingrid he knew wasn’t the woman Breslaw killed. But even then Breslaw isn’t convinced he did the right thing. “If this fascist scum becomes your president in the next five or ten years, how am I going to sleep at night?” Duncan tells him he would have made the same choice.

[jinxed-wood.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the name check, I don't know why I was so sure his name was Le Brun :)

From a episode point of view, I think this conversation makes it even more interesting in terms of the Breslaw/Methos contrast. Usually, Methos is all about the 'grey' but in this episode he is surprisingly black and white in his opinions. Was it a test to see how Mac reacted? I guess I'd have to ask the scriptwriteer to know the answer to that question...

[macgeorge1.livejournal.com]

Methos is such a wonderful, complex character, but he is consistent in that he doesn't angst over decisions, at least when they don't involve people he cares about. He sees Ingrid doing things that a) are a potential threat to Immortals in that they are attracting the attention of the police; and b) that he figures she is unlikely to cease doing just because Duncan disagrees with her philosophical viewpoint. For him the answer is simple: Whack her.

Methos can be a very callus, cyncial man, and he frankly doesn't hold life (at least the lives of those with whom he is not involved) very dear at all. That may be one of the most stark differences between he and MacLeod. Duncan holds *all* life as sacred while Methos only cares about the very few to whom he has allowed himself to get close.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

For some reason, I have this wolf pack metaphor in my head. It's strange, yes, but here goes... There's the wolves in Methos' pack, and then there's all the rest. He only cares about his wolves. There are times that Methos definitely makes me think of a wolf. And I love wolves, so there may be a connection there :)

I really need to drink some tea before I get any odder this morning...

[amonitrate.livejournal.com]

no, I'm totally with you. I used the same metaphor when thinking about the hierarchy of power among the Horsemen. Methos is very much a pack/tribal character. He'll risk his life for one of his "pack" but has an ambiguous relationship at best to anyone outside of that unit.

Also, I wonder how much of his prodding of MacLeod to "Whack" Kristen, Warren, or Ingrid has more to do with trying to make MacLeod think, to look at *all* the options, rather than what he'd actually do given the same situation.

MacLeod says he doesn't know how to stop Ingrid, and Methos calls him on that - there is a way to stop her, if that's what he really wants to do. At that point MacLeod seemed to be trying to talk himself into rationalizing her behaviour.

With Methos, he either acts, or he doesn't act. He doesn't agonize over things the way MacLeod does. And I think that's what he's saying here, that either MacLeod acts in the way he knows will stop her, or he lets it go.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

Okay, I feel less odd now :)

Methos seems determined to not allow Duncan to delude himself when it comes to acknowledging that he does to know exactly what the solution is.

[amonitrate.livejournal.com]

yeah. It's more of a philosophy of keeping *all* of your options open, of not eliminating an option just because of your personal feelings or some sense of "what's right" or correct. Seeing your own blind spots, I guess, and not letting them stay your hand. And whatever you choose, like MacGeorge said, don't agonize over it, or second guess yourself. Because you made your choice and you have to live with it.

[holde-maid.livejournal.com]

I very much agree with that.

I hold that Methos merely wants Duncan to act by his convictions, irrespective of Ingrid's gender or the past they share.
It could be that he judges others solely by their current actions and personalities because if he were judged by the WHOLE of his life... ;-)

[jinxed-wood.livejournal.com]

Lol, do you think he'll roll over if we ask him to?

I do agree Methos has a 'him and his, and then everybody else' mentality - I even commented on it in a fanfic of mine once.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

I don't need much encouragement to talk about wolves [g], so I'll add this: there's even some physical similarity. I didn't realize till I saw a wolf in the wild in Yellowstone, about 15 feet away, walk past me, that they're much taller in the leg and hips than you think they are from seeing them on TV or in photos. They're tall! This particular wolf was a deep chocolate brown, and what amazing eyes! He literally was a 'lone wolf' -- an alpha male who had left his pack to wander alone. I got to thinking about him when the subject of Methos and wolves came up yesterday.

[jinxed-wood.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'm now officially jealous! Wolves have died out here long ago. I think the nearest wild pack is in Norway, so I don't think I will see one in the near future :-(

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

It was one of the major thrills of my life, I'll admit. for years I've supported the reintroduction ow wolves to Yellowstone, and to finally see one, that close, was amazing.