ithildin | The Valkyrie

Welcome to the twelfth installment of Methos Episode Discussion. You can find the last one, for The Messenger here. All prior episode discussion links can be found over on the sidebar.

The Valkyrie, Air Date: Feb. 1997

In 1944, Ingrid Henning had the chance to kill Adolf Hitler and failed.She's been atoning for that failure ever since by killing dictators,tyrants, racists, and fascists who might have the potential to becomeas dangerous. MacLeod has a chance to stop her before she kills more mortals, but by stopping her, does MacLeod commit the same evil for which he's judged her guilty? ~ recap & quotes via tv.com

Next up will be Comes A Horseman and (perhaps) Revelation 6:8. Look for it/them on Thursday.

Quotes below the curtain

Methos: You okay?
Duncan: Ingrid asked me something before she died.
Methos: They usually do.
Duncan: She said, "What was the difference between her killing them and me killing her?"
Methos: Good question. Right up there with chicken and egg.
Duncan: So what are you saying? There is no answer?
Methos: No, there is an answer. The real question is whether you're ready for it. Stefanovich killed, and Ingrid judged him. Wilkinson killed, and Ingrid killed him. Ingrid killed, and you judged her.
Duncan: So, who judges me?
Methos: You hungry?
________________________

Joe: You know, you really can be an arrogant pain in the ass sometimes.
Methos: Guilty as charged.
________________________

Duncan: You mind telling me what you find funny about all this?
Methos: Not exactly funny, but, uh...pretty entertaining, yeah.
Joe: Just what is so entertaining?
Methos: MacLeod tussling with another of his moral dilemmas.
Duncan: You know there are times I really don't like you.
Methos: That's okay - sometimes I don't like myself.
________________________

(Ingrid Henning enters)
Methos: Time to go.
Duncan: She's a friend.
Methos: Listen, when they carry a sword and I haven't been fully introduced, I get shy.
________________________

Duncan: Since when are you my attorney?
Methos: Whatever you need: lawyer, doctor, Indian chief - I've got paperwork to cover it all.
________________________

Methos: Look at this. It's an exhibition of Greek antiquities.
Duncan: Oh, yeah, I can't wait. A two thousand five hundred year-old garage sale.
Methos: Listen - some of this stuff could be mine.
________________________

Duncan: You're an old cynic.
Methos: I try.
________________________

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Thought I'd better get around to watching this before the discussion so have spent a good couple of hours catching up with HL (re-watched CaH and Rev - still gets me by the throat)(have just started FuOT and had to pause it to have dinner, just noticed it was during a rather nice shot of Methos in boxer shorts mmm thought I'd minimize it in case other half wondered what I was watching! I have enough trouble when he catches me reading slash!)

OK back to episode, I liked this but mostly as a precursor to CaH and Rev as we get to see a little more of Methos not doing/being who everyone thinks he is, also the line

Duncan: You know there are times I really don't like you.
Methos: That's okay - sometimes I don't like myself.

I found Ingrid intriguing and wonder just how many more women with homicidal tendencies does Mac know? well I know Cassandra turns up next but is she the last (and the most extreme - the only one after Methos?)

Will be interested in reading others thoughts.

Alison

I love the way that Methos tries to brush off Macleod's angstful dilemmas, but can't figure out whether he does it to distance himself from those sorts of questions, or whether he's trying to make Mac think about his black/white worldview. Obviously Mac's already second-guessing, but would he ever make his mind up if Methos wasn't snarking in the background?

I've always thought the latter.

There's so much foreshadowing in this ep. I had no idea what was coming the next week when I first saw it.

I totally forgot that this ep was right before the whole Horsemen revelation *facepalm* How daft is that? So yes, definite laying of groundwork on the part of the writers and Methos :)

What does Methos mean when he says, "Some of this stuff could be mine"? Was he an artist? Or might he have owned it. I've read some fics in which he's an artist, but I wondered if that was canon or not.

My assumption was always that it was stuff he might have owned at some point. I figure he's had to leave lots of stuff behind in a hurry as the centuries passed.

Ah, yes, that makes sense.

Heh. I always figured he was yanking Duncan's chain. Yeah, he could have owned some of the stuff, but I really think he was just poking at Duncan and reminding him he'd been around longer.

Just re-watched.

I'd forgotten how much I loved the Interpol guy. Even though he's just a one-off guest actor, I think he does a great job of getting close to Duncan and forming something of a bond with him.

I watched with closed captioning on, because I have fans on and couldn't hear very well, and I noted with amusement that on two occasions, when Methos reacts with sort of a non-verbal snicker and roll of the eyes, the closed caption said " [scoffs] ". Ha!

I really liked the Interpol guy too.

And isn't the white supremacist guy the father on Veronica Mars?

Okay, I guess he isn't -- answering my own question!

(Ingrid Henning enters)
Methos: Time to go.
Duncan: She's a friend.
Methos: Listen, when they carry a sword and I haven't been fully introduced, I get shy.

Just to be picky, Methos' line is "when they carry a sword and we haven't been formally introduced, I get shy"

What I always found interesting about this episode was the contrast between Methos and Le Brun (Interpol guy!)

Firstly, you have Methos who, we later learn, has every reason to encourage Duncan to turn a blind eye to Ingrid's failings but instead encourages him to judge Ingrid for her actions.

Le Brun, on the face of it, seems to agree; but if you listen to him closely, his motives are very different. The son of a dissident poet who was killed, Le Brun has every reason to agree with Ingrid's motives but is reluctant to judge Ingrid, or her target, for their actions. It's as if he is afraid of what the outcome might be.

I couldn't help thinking, shouldn't it be the other way around?

Police are trained to seek out proof of a crime and identify suspects, not to judge. Obviously they have their own opinions, but it'd be hard to get any copper to voice them outside his office until after that case has been heard in court. Maybe that's why Le Brun is so evasive.

There's also the strange fact that while French criminal law does presume innocence until proven guilty (a constitutional right), the opposite was in practice until about 5 years ago. I don't think it was ever stated outright or written into judicial procedure, but the "mood" of court was habitually set against the accused from the very beginning. It was always a touchy subject outside France, because the idea of "innocent until proven guilty" is so ingrained in most democratic countries, and the French government was taken to the International Court of Human Rights in the end.

*scratches head* I think my point was going to be that Le Brun might not be thinking about Ingrid in the same way that another policeman might, regardless of his personal history :)

Actually, the interpol guy was named Breslaw. Le Brun was the French policeman from Season Two (or three, I forget). I thought he was *wonderfully* played, especially the scene in the bar after Breslaw *thinks* he's killed Ingred. From my own commentar on this wonderful episode:

Breslaw lights a cigarette as a replacement for his toothpick, saying that maybe if he dies a little tonight, “It will even things out between me and God.” Breslaw acknowledges that Wilkinson’s speech is back on, and that “this time he is on his own.” He notes that, “When I was a little boy, everything was black and white, good and evil, you see. Then I grew up and discovered that there was only gray,” and apologizes for killing Duncan’s friend. Duncan tells him he did what he had to do, that the Ingrid he knew wasn’t the woman Breslaw killed. But even then Breslaw isn’t convinced he did the right thing. “If this fascist scum becomes your president in the next five or ten years, how am I going to sleep at night?” Duncan tells him he would have made the same choice.

Thanks for the name check, I don't know why I was so sure his name was Le Brun :)

From a episode point of view, I think this conversation makes it even more interesting in terms of the Breslaw/Methos contrast. Usually, Methos is all about the 'grey' but in this episode he is surprisingly black and white in his opinions. Was it a test to see how Mac reacted? I guess I'd have to ask the scriptwriteer to know the answer to that question...

Methos is such a wonderful, complex character, but he is consistent in that he doesn't angst over decisions, at least when they don't involve people he cares about. He sees Ingrid doing things that a) are a potential threat to Immortals in that they are attracting the attention of the police; and b) that he figures she is unlikely to cease doing just because Duncan disagrees with her philosophical viewpoint. For him the answer is simple: Whack her.

Methos can be a very callus, cyncial man, and he frankly doesn't hold life (at least the lives of those with whom he is not involved) very dear at all. That may be one of the most stark differences between he and MacLeod. Duncan holds *all* life as sacred while Methos only cares about the very few to whom he has allowed himself to get close.

For some reason, I have this wolf pack metaphor in my head. It's strange, yes, but here goes... There's the wolves in Methos' pack, and then there's all the rest. He only cares about his wolves. There are times that Methos definitely makes me think of a wolf. And I love wolves, so there may be a connection there :)

I really need to drink some tea before I get any odder this morning...

no, I'm totally with you. I used the same metaphor when thinking about the hierarchy of power among the Horsemen. Methos is very much a pack/tribal character. He'll risk his life for one of his "pack" but has an ambiguous relationship at best to anyone outside of that unit.

Also, I wonder how much of his prodding of MacLeod to "Whack" Kristen, Warren, or Ingrid has more to do with trying to make MacLeod think, to look at *all* the options, rather than what he'd actually do given the same situation.

MacLeod says he doesn't know how to stop Ingrid, and Methos calls him on that - there is a way to stop her, if that's what he really wants to do. At that point MacLeod seemed to be trying to talk himself into rationalizing her behaviour.

With Methos, he either acts, or he doesn't act. He doesn't agonize over things the way MacLeod does. And I think that's what he's saying here, that either MacLeod acts in the way he knows will stop her, or he lets it go.

Okay, I feel less odd now :)

Methos seems determined to not allow Duncan to delude himself when it comes to acknowledging that he does to know exactly what the solution is.

yeah. It's more of a philosophy of keeping *all* of your options open, of not eliminating an option just because of your personal feelings or some sense of "what's right" or correct. Seeing your own blind spots, I guess, and not letting them stay your hand. And whatever you choose, like MacGeorge said, don't agonize over it, or second guess yourself. Because you made your choice and you have to live with it.

I very much agree with that.

I hold that Methos merely wants Duncan to act by his convictions, irrespective of Ingrid's gender or the past they share.
It could be that he judges others solely by their current actions and personalities because if he were judged by the WHOLE of his life... ;-)

Lol, do you think he'll roll over if we ask him to?

I do agree Methos has a 'him and his, and then everybody else' mentality - I even commented on it in a fanfic of mine once.

I don't need much encouragement to talk about wolves [g], so I'll add this: there's even some physical similarity. I didn't realize till I saw a wolf in the wild in Yellowstone, about 15 feet away, walk past me, that they're much taller in the leg and hips than you think they are from seeing them on TV or in photos. They're tall! This particular wolf was a deep chocolate brown, and what amazing eyes! He literally was a 'lone wolf' -- an alpha male who had left his pack to wander alone. I got to thinking about him when the subject of Methos and wolves came up yesterday.

Okay, I'm now officially jealous! Wolves have died out here long ago. I think the nearest wild pack is in Norway, so I don't think I will see one in the near future :-(

It was one of the major thrills of my life, I'll admit. for years I've supported the reintroduction ow wolves to Yellowstone, and to finally see one, that close, was amazing.

I almost forgot! Methos doesn't like boxing. I found it interesting that Duncan is a big enthusiast of the sport, and Methos seems to find it distasteful.

Right! Actually one of the funniest lines in the episode is when Duncan says that Charlies would have wanted them to sponsor such a place, because it could help keep kids off the streets.

"Right," says Methos, "Because a kid might get hurt out on the streets."

As a fight-related aside, the quote below is attributed to Jim Byrnes by a B. C. newspaper recently after a bout, but could easily have come from Joe (who was also in the opening boxing scene*g*:

“It’s a great sport. I fought when I was a kid under an old Irish priest. I hated getting hit so much they thought I was good.”

I love that scene, it's so perfect.

And of COURSE Methos doesn't like boxing!
First, it is not as efficient when fighting other martial arts - which goes for most martial arts involving competitions, actually, because they have to have rules that stop you from doing real harm.
Second, it constitutes pointless violence. Not that he'd have moral qualms about that, but I don't see him wasting energy or risking to lower his potential as an opponent in the Game needlessly.

hmmm, I really like this show. I like the interaction between Duncan and Methos. I like the Interpol guy. I even like Ingrid. Unfortunately, Duncan had to kill another friend.

I read all the comments and I have to agree with all of them concerning Methos. He was very callus. He does seem to only care about those he's allowed to let himself get close to. And Duncan MacLeod is someone he wants to keep alive and close to his heart. Why?

Another thing about this show I really like?
Methos looked great in those jeans *g*

These jeans:

I just got back from lunch, and I click open the comments page and this is on top. I see 'these jeans' and really lovely photos, which I really appreciate [scrolls up for a bit] [comes back] Where was I? Oh yeah! These jeans? I had to get myself farther down the page to the next comment to get the context [g] *Those jeans* . I like your taste :)

lol, it's sad commentary that the thing I remember loving most about the episode is a pair of jeans. *g*

I did adore that first scene with Duncan, Methos and Joe at the boxing match. And the scene in the outtakes when Joe poured the beer over Methos' head. That was very funny.

Those jeans also offer a very nice *rear view*. :-)

We need to stick to these important points in discussing future episodes! With visual evidence :)

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The Elves have left us, and we have not mourned to see them go.

The Valkyrie

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