'Comes a Horseman' & 'Revelation 6:8'

[ithildin]

Welcome to the thirteenth & fourteenth installment of Methos Episode Discussion. You can find the last one, for The Valkyrie here. All prior episode discussion links can be found over on the sidebar.

I have a hunch this one will generate a lot of comments, so I'm going to try and remember to use subject headers for comments to try and make it easier to sort.

Comes a Horseman & Revelation 6:8, Air Date: Feb. 1997

MacLeod knew him as Melvin Koren, a desperado who left a trail of death and fire across the Old West, but Cassandra remembers him as an evil far older. He is Kronos, leader of the Four Horsemen, mounted Bronze Age raiders who murdered, raped, and pillaged their way across two continents. Never was a band of Immortals more cruel or more feared. He destroyed Cassandra's people and she's been hunting him across the millenia. But Kronos has a different target now -- Methos.
__________________________
One by one, Kronos is putting the Four Horsemen back together. Once they struck fear in the hearts of men with sword and axe. Today, their weapons of destruction are different, but their goal is the same: to bring mankind what it fears most, the Apocalypse. Only Duncan MacLeod stands between them and the end of the world. ~ recap and quotes via tv.com

Quotes below the curtain:



Cassandra: My people, take me to them.
Methos: You want to see them? *points* There they are...Caspian keeps the heads, he'll think it'll make him smarter...so far it hasn't worked.
Cassandra: You killed them? All of them?
Methos: Including you.
________________________

Caspian: I fought as well as you. I killed more people.
Silas: Women and children don't count.
________________________

(a dagger is thrown at Methos's chest)
Kronos: Greetings, brother.
Methos: Kronos!
Kronos: I missed you too.
________________________

Methos: I think they love me.
Duncan: They'd love a hammerhead shark if it had a nice smile.
________________________

Joe: Are we talking the Horsemen from the Bible?
Duncan: No Joe, the Kentucky Derby.
Joe: Fine, we'll get my bookie on the phone, who we betting on? War? Famine?
Cassandra: Death
________________________

Methos: Look, I might not know who Chubby Checker is...but I know when it's time to leave.
________________________

Kronos: Well, you can either lose your head. Or you can join me.
Methos: Well, since you put it that way ... welcome back, brother!
________________________

Methos: So I'm a little weak on pop culture. Well, who the hell is Chubby Checker in the grand scheme of things, anyway? I mean I know how tall Nero was, Caeser's favorite food, I know Helen of Troy didn't have that great a face and it only launched a hundred ships not a thousand, and...
Duncan: Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...
________________________

Methos: I killed, but I didn't just kill fifty; I didn't kill a hundred; I killed a thousand; I killed ten thousand! And I was good at it. And it wasn't for vengeance; it wasn't for greed. It was because I liked it. Cassandra was nothing; her village was nothing. Do you know who I was? I was Death. (Methos laughs) Death, Death on a horse. When mothers warned their children that the monster would get them, that monster was me. I was the nightmare that kept them awake at night. Is that what you want to hear?! The answer is yes. Oh, yes.
________________________

Methos: It's been over a thousand years - he may not remember us.
Kronos: He'll remember - what we were you don't forget.
Methos: And if he doesn't want to come?
Kronos: He'll come...or he'll die.
________________________

Duncan: Kronos was right - you set the whole thing up, didn't you?
Methos: What d'you mean?
Duncan: You knew he'd come after Cassandra, and you let him because you knew I'd come after her. You couldn't kill him, but you hoped I could.
Methos: Maybe.
Duncan: 'Maybe.' Methos, what about Cassandra?
Methos: One of a thousand regrets, MacLeod, one of a thousand regrets.
________________________

Silas: MacLeod's here?
Methos: Yes. (Methos draws his sword)
Silas: You're challenging me? For the girl's head? Take it. She's yours, brother.
Methos: I am not your brother.
Silas: How can you do this? How can you go against what you are?
Methos: You don't know anything about me!
________________________

Kronos: You didn't really think I wouldn't know you'd tell MacLeod, did you?
Methos: It's not like you think it is.
Kronos: Ah, it's exactly like I think. My dearest brother, that's what makes you my perfect right arm; we think alike. We always have.
Methos: I doubt that, Kronos. No one thinks quite like you.
Kronos: Spoken like a true scholar.
________________________

Duncan: Why did you lie to me?
Methos: About what?
Duncan: About Cassandra, about who you were.
Methos: I have been many things, MacLeod.
Duncan: And who are you now?
________________________

Silas: Methos, you look troubled.
Methos: Just thinking.
Silas: Ah, you were always good at that, eh? And after all these years, you still are.
________________________

Caspian: You have a plan?
Kronos: I have a few thoughts. I have a few dollars, enough for a start. Now we have Methos; now we have a plan.
Methos: What did you have in mind?
Kronos: Once we rode out of the sun bringing death at the point of a sword. There was no man and no Immortal who could stand before us. We were death on horseback. They called us the end of the world. Well, gentlemen, I want to give them what they fear most, the apocalypse.
________________________

Silas: Methos! Hey, Methos! What the hell is this place?
Methos: This is Kronos's idea of Camelot.
Silas: Where are the stables, hm? The horses? Well, how do we ride?
Caspian: Where have you been for the last two thousand years, idiot? Living in the woods, and now you think we can just mount up and gallop down Broadway?
Silas: We can do whatever we please.
Caspian: Right. Four guys on horseback. Wild masks. They'll think we're in a circus.
Silas: They won't think it for long, will they?
________________________

Kronos: Two days on an airplane and another two on a horse. I hope you're not wasting my time.
Methos: I thought you enjoyed my company.
Kronos: Even for you, Methos, my patience has limits.
Methos: This is the place. I'm telling you, Kronos, he's here. Would I lie to you?
Kronos: Have you ever done anything else?
________________________

Methos: I killed Silas! I liked Silas!
________________________

Duncan: "The Three Horsemen of the Apocolypse" - doesn't have the same ring to it, does it, Kronos?
________________________





Next up will be Forgive Us Our Trespasses. Look for it next week.

Comments

[pat-t.livejournal.com]

Gosh, I've already talked about the church scene and my love for Cassandra *coffs*. What shall we talk about now? You want to pick a topic to start it off? This show starts out fun - you know. Duncan and Methos joking around - buddies (lovers) and then it turns ugly very quickly with the arrival of Kronos and Cassandra. Methos and Duncan's world falls apart. We find out a bit more about Methos' past and it isn't pretty.

We meet "stick boy", lol.

What does this show have? Friendship - tears - betrayal - anger - hurt- revenge - uncertainty.

And it changes the course for the rest of the series. Changes Duncan's and Methos' relationship forever - the easy trust is gone. Now they have to find a place where they can connect and start to rebuild the friendship.

This is what I think about when I think of CAH and Rev - it all comes down to this moment:

[enchantersnight.livejournal.com]

Yes I think picking topics would work best, my brain just shorted out trying to think where to start! a couple of my favourite quotes first then;

(a dagger is thrown at Methos's chest)
Kronos: Greetings, brother.
Methos: Kronos!
Kronos: I missed you too.

Methos: I think they love me.
Duncan: They'd love a hammerhead shark if it had a nice smile. (mm like that one a nice smile yes *sighs*)

Kronos: Well, you can either lose your head. Or you can join me.
Methos: Well, since you put it that way ... welcome back, brother!

anyone guess this may take a while :)

Silas: Methos, you look troubled.
Methos: Just thinking.
Silas: Ah, you were always good at that, eh? And after all these years, you still are.

(I liked Silas (is that wrong?) he seemed to be almost redeemable (or the fact I like something large to hug *runs off in shame*) (or playful/simple (see below) or maybe I should stop this line of thought having the hots for one psychopathic killer is bad but two!)

Silas: Methos! Hey, Methos! What the hell is this place?
Methos: This is Kronos's idea of Camelot.
Silas: Where are the stables, hm? The horses? Well, how do we ride?
Caspian: Where have you been for the last two thousand years, idiot? Living in the woods, and now you think we can just mount up and gallop down Broadway?
Silas: We can do whatever we please.
Caspian: Right. Four guys on horseback. Wild masks. They'll think we're in a circus.
Silas: They won't think it for long, will they?

The music here is almost sweet/soft with Methos talking to the brother he actually likes

Methos, resigned: "It will work." He moves closer. "Silas. For two thousand years we have lived without this. We have lived without the blood, the fear, the power."

Silas: "And for two thousand years I have dreamed of the day when we would ride again!" Smiles. "Like you always said, Methos: we live, we grow stronger. And then we fight."

I was near sobbing when Methos was at the end I liked Silas too!

*OK going into hiding now*

[pat-t.livejournal.com]

You know it's funny, but Silas is one of those characters that people just kind of loved. I think one reason is because Methos liked him too. And he didn't *seem* as bloodthirsty as the rest. But is that a fallacy? Hmm, got me to thinking. Will take this subject to my lj for further discussion. Carry on, lol.

[sophiedb.livejournal.com]

I think you might be right, and he didn't seem so bloodthirsty. Kronos was a murderous bastard all his life, Caspian was a serial killer.. and Silas lived in the woods. Then again, Kronos wanted to make an example by killing many people at once, remotely. Silas was more of a hands-on, close-quarters fighter.

Maybe that was the safest way once the Horsemen separated - he wasn't exactly the sharpest of the four. Did he get the same kicks from hunting animals as humans? I'm pretty sure they found him in an area that still has large predators like wolves and can see him enjoying the challenge of fighting them for a spot at the top of the food chain. Probably took 'em on hand to hand :)

[sophiedb.livejournal.com]

Methos: I killed, but I didn't just kill fifty; I didn't kill a hundred; I killed a thousand; I killed ten thousand! And I was good at it. And it wasn't for vengeance; it wasn't for greed. It was because I liked it. Cassandra was nothing; her village was nothing. Do you know who I was? I was Death. (Methos laughs) Death, Death on a horse. When mothers warned their children that the monster would get them, that monster was me. I was the nightmare that kept them awake at night. Is that what you want to hear?! The answer is yes. Oh, yes.

Whether or not it was partly for shock value (get it through your head you stubborn Scottish bastard! *cough*), I love that little monologue :)

They almost had absolute power back then, didn't they? On a small scale, and time enough to cover most of the old world at least once a generation. Who needs a castle when you're a nightmare?



But the power didn't corrupt all of them absolutely, not forever (bless). I get the impression that it was more of a constant high, drunk on the fact that no-one could out-plan or out-live the four of them. There wouldn't have been as many Immortals either - small global population with a high rate of natural death in childhood, culling the pre-Immies before they got big enough to hold a weapon.

[eveningblue.livejournal.com]

When I watch this scene, the impression I get is that Methos is trying to push Duncan away. Maybe for his own good or maybe not, I don't know. But the way he turns from defensive and pleading to offensive and angry makes it seem almost like a dare, like "I did those things, yeah, what of it?" Like a challenge.

[cyberducks.livejournal.com]

The show was really firing on all cylinders during those two episodes - together they play like a very exiting movie. Horton and Kronos were the best villains the series ever had, but while Horton was merely loathsome in his evilness, there is something special and attractive about Kronos, and something fascinating about the Methos/Kronos relationship - look at all the fan fic dealing with that relationship, and how sexulized a lot of it is. Methos of course was manipulating events as much as he was able dealing with Kronos - who is both predictable in that his basic mode of operating hasn't changed from back in the bad old days, and utterly unpredictable, as only a crazy sociopath can be. Methos of course has changed since the days of the Horsemen, and continues to change and adapt to times and circumstances, hence his longevity. Methos likes the way he is currently living, he wouldn't want to go back to being a murdering Horseman - and he knew from the moment he lay eyes on Kronos again, that for him to survive, for his comfortable way of life to survive, Kronos would have to go. Hence his manipulation of Duncan into doing the deed.

The only thing imo that doesn't work is the writing for and the way Cassandra is acted - I have never been able to muster the appropiate sympathy for that character - she is one note shrill and utterly unpleasant, and I blame the acting and writing.

[cyberducks.livejournal.com]

I meant of course "sexualized", gee...

[eveningblue.livejournal.com]

I would imagine that one of the things that would have made watching these episodes exciting during the show's original run would have been not knowing whether or not Duncan would end up killing Methos.

By this point in the series, we knew that Duncan could be a hard, judgmental guy. He had just killed Ingrid, who, one could argue, didn't really deserve to die. Her worst crime had been killing morally questionable people. She'd never committed wholesale slaughter, as Methos had.

So why doesn't Duncan kill him?

[eveningblue.livejournal.com]

Methos of course has changed since the days of the Horsemen, and continues to change and adapt to times and circumstances, hence his longevity. Methos likes the way he is currently living, he wouldn't want to go back to being a murdering Horseman - and he knew from the moment he lay eyes on Kronos again, that for him to survive, for his comfortable way of life to survive, Kronos would have to go.

Yes, I think you're absolutely right about this. Much as we would like him to betray Kronos because it's the "right" thing to do, he knows that he and Kronos and the rest can never really be the Horsemen again; they're not invincible, they will get caught, and that would threaten his survival.

Or do you think Methos has really changed and now is a better person?

And what does Duncan think?

Visual aids!

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

[hugs Pat] Pretty pictures first thing i see when I log on! Whheee! :) I knew there was a good reason to put the post up before I went to bed. Stuff to read *and* visual aids.

[cyberducks.livejournal.com]

Well, he has moved on from the raping, and killing, and murdering ways - but he needs Kronos gone for survival reasons, not for society and moralities sake.

The Jimmy Scene

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

Now this was a subject I jotted down in my notes last night!

My take on the Jimmy scene was that Methos desperately wanted Duncan to
understand, that what they'd been through together would be enough for
Duncan to remember Methos was his friend, that he cared. But Duncan
judged him and turned his back on him.

I know that my POV differs markedly from most everyone else, but that was my first take on the scene, and it's held up for me over the years.

( have a Jimmy! Not a nice black one like Methos, but I have one. I
have been tempted to paint it black though.)

[cyberducks.livejournal.com]

Because whether one believes in the slash aspect of that relationship or not - Duncan and Methos have something special, Methos means something to Mac, and in the end that something is more important to Mac than satisfying Cassandra with Methos' death.

Methos Changing

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

Okay, is it, or is it not canon that Darius became good by taking a
'light quickening'? If that's true, then why, for lack of a better term, the double standard? Methos worked at changing, Darius just lucked out.

This is something that's always niggled at me, so I'm hoping I'll get to finally figure it out this time around :)

[cyberducks.livejournal.com]

And more important to Mac than his sense or drive for justice.

[eveningblue.livejournal.com]

I am not talking about Cassandra. I am talking about Methos. Why did Duncan not judge him to need killing?

Duncan had "something special" with a lot of people. That didn't keep him from killing them. Yet, he lets Methos live.

Is it because Methos is not bad *now*? Is it because Methos ends up proving himself by killing Silas? Is it because Methos does not pose a threat to other people anymore? Surely, if Duncan saw himself as a punisher of past crimes, Methos would be dead. But he's not.

Silas

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

I think Methos thinks Silas might not be as bloodthirsty, that he has the potential for change if given the right circumstances, but there's never a chance to find out. That wonderful, poignant scene with the monkeys, the wistful, hopeful look on Methos' face.Then reality kicks in.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

Since I've been watching older eps, what I saw last night was "Blind Faith" and Duncan doesn't kill the formerly evil immie. And this was a guy he'd sworn to kill. Can't remember the guys name, but Duncan had met him in several war zones over the years. He was now some sort of faith leader.

[eveningblue.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's a really good point, I'd forgotten that one! Kirin, I think his name was. You're absolutely right, he doesn't kill him because he has changed. So I guess Duncan believes Methos has changed enough not to warrant killing.

In the Beginning

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

In the beginning, before the dagger through the heart, Methos assuming the immie he felt was Mac. Geez. He should know better, not to mention it never seemed very in character for Methos, and since I rag on Cassandra later on, I figured I should play fair :)

&

Why did Methos go to see Duncan? Other than a CPD to put him and Cass in
the same place. Was he going to spin some tale, was he just going to say he was leaving town? Was he going to give him some version of the truth?

Re: Methos Changing

[eveningblue.livejournal.com]

Do you think Methos really worked at changing, though? I wonder how it happened. I'd love to read a fic that explores his first few years after the Horsemen. Do we even know how he got away from them?

Re: Methos Changing

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

I think he did. If only because that scene between him and Kronos, where he's trying to suck Methos back to the Dark Side. Methos seems like an addict. That's the closest I can come to describing it.

In the uncut version of the episodes on the DVDs, there's a scene where Methos poisons Kronos (and the wigs! lord!) in Greece and imprisons him at the bottom of a well. Then he set up a monastary so that food would be tossed down to him. Kronos was down there for centuries before he tricked a red shirt young monk, into letting him out.

Re: Methos Changing

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

a bit to add on... I do think Methos made a conscious decision to not be the man he was. Of course, we don't know what he started out like, before the Horseman, there may have been more to work with than there was with Kronos. So did he evolve, or did he revert back to the man he might have been before?

Re: Methos Changing

[eveningblue.livejournal.com]

Right, of course, we really have no idea what he was before. Good point.