'Comes a Horseman' & 'Revelation 6:8'

[ithildin]

Welcome to the thirteenth & fourteenth installment of Methos Episode Discussion. You can find the last one, for The Valkyrie here. All prior episode discussion links can be found over on the sidebar.

I have a hunch this one will generate a lot of comments, so I'm going to try and remember to use subject headers for comments to try and make it easier to sort.

Comes a Horseman & Revelation 6:8, Air Date: Feb. 1997

MacLeod knew him as Melvin Koren, a desperado who left a trail of death and fire across the Old West, but Cassandra remembers him as an evil far older. He is Kronos, leader of the Four Horsemen, mounted Bronze Age raiders who murdered, raped, and pillaged their way across two continents. Never was a band of Immortals more cruel or more feared. He destroyed Cassandra's people and she's been hunting him across the millenia. But Kronos has a different target now -- Methos.
__________________________
One by one, Kronos is putting the Four Horsemen back together. Once they struck fear in the hearts of men with sword and axe. Today, their weapons of destruction are different, but their goal is the same: to bring mankind what it fears most, the Apocalypse. Only Duncan MacLeod stands between them and the end of the world. ~ recap and quotes via tv.com

Quotes below the curtain:



Cassandra: My people, take me to them.
Methos: You want to see them? *points* There they are...Caspian keeps the heads, he'll think it'll make him smarter...so far it hasn't worked.
Cassandra: You killed them? All of them?
Methos: Including you.
________________________

Caspian: I fought as well as you. I killed more people.
Silas: Women and children don't count.
________________________

(a dagger is thrown at Methos's chest)
Kronos: Greetings, brother.
Methos: Kronos!
Kronos: I missed you too.
________________________

Methos: I think they love me.
Duncan: They'd love a hammerhead shark if it had a nice smile.
________________________

Joe: Are we talking the Horsemen from the Bible?
Duncan: No Joe, the Kentucky Derby.
Joe: Fine, we'll get my bookie on the phone, who we betting on? War? Famine?
Cassandra: Death
________________________

Methos: Look, I might not know who Chubby Checker is...but I know when it's time to leave.
________________________

Kronos: Well, you can either lose your head. Or you can join me.
Methos: Well, since you put it that way ... welcome back, brother!
________________________

Methos: So I'm a little weak on pop culture. Well, who the hell is Chubby Checker in the grand scheme of things, anyway? I mean I know how tall Nero was, Caeser's favorite food, I know Helen of Troy didn't have that great a face and it only launched a hundred ships not a thousand, and...
Duncan: Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...
________________________

Methos: I killed, but I didn't just kill fifty; I didn't kill a hundred; I killed a thousand; I killed ten thousand! And I was good at it. And it wasn't for vengeance; it wasn't for greed. It was because I liked it. Cassandra was nothing; her village was nothing. Do you know who I was? I was Death. (Methos laughs) Death, Death on a horse. When mothers warned their children that the monster would get them, that monster was me. I was the nightmare that kept them awake at night. Is that what you want to hear?! The answer is yes. Oh, yes.
________________________

Methos: It's been over a thousand years - he may not remember us.
Kronos: He'll remember - what we were you don't forget.
Methos: And if he doesn't want to come?
Kronos: He'll come...or he'll die.
________________________

Duncan: Kronos was right - you set the whole thing up, didn't you?
Methos: What d'you mean?
Duncan: You knew he'd come after Cassandra, and you let him because you knew I'd come after her. You couldn't kill him, but you hoped I could.
Methos: Maybe.
Duncan: 'Maybe.' Methos, what about Cassandra?
Methos: One of a thousand regrets, MacLeod, one of a thousand regrets.
________________________

Silas: MacLeod's here?
Methos: Yes. (Methos draws his sword)
Silas: You're challenging me? For the girl's head? Take it. She's yours, brother.
Methos: I am not your brother.
Silas: How can you do this? How can you go against what you are?
Methos: You don't know anything about me!
________________________

Kronos: You didn't really think I wouldn't know you'd tell MacLeod, did you?
Methos: It's not like you think it is.
Kronos: Ah, it's exactly like I think. My dearest brother, that's what makes you my perfect right arm; we think alike. We always have.
Methos: I doubt that, Kronos. No one thinks quite like you.
Kronos: Spoken like a true scholar.
________________________

Duncan: Why did you lie to me?
Methos: About what?
Duncan: About Cassandra, about who you were.
Methos: I have been many things, MacLeod.
Duncan: And who are you now?
________________________

Silas: Methos, you look troubled.
Methos: Just thinking.
Silas: Ah, you were always good at that, eh? And after all these years, you still are.
________________________

Caspian: You have a plan?
Kronos: I have a few thoughts. I have a few dollars, enough for a start. Now we have Methos; now we have a plan.
Methos: What did you have in mind?
Kronos: Once we rode out of the sun bringing death at the point of a sword. There was no man and no Immortal who could stand before us. We were death on horseback. They called us the end of the world. Well, gentlemen, I want to give them what they fear most, the apocalypse.
________________________

Silas: Methos! Hey, Methos! What the hell is this place?
Methos: This is Kronos's idea of Camelot.
Silas: Where are the stables, hm? The horses? Well, how do we ride?
Caspian: Where have you been for the last two thousand years, idiot? Living in the woods, and now you think we can just mount up and gallop down Broadway?
Silas: We can do whatever we please.
Caspian: Right. Four guys on horseback. Wild masks. They'll think we're in a circus.
Silas: They won't think it for long, will they?
________________________

Kronos: Two days on an airplane and another two on a horse. I hope you're not wasting my time.
Methos: I thought you enjoyed my company.
Kronos: Even for you, Methos, my patience has limits.
Methos: This is the place. I'm telling you, Kronos, he's here. Would I lie to you?
Kronos: Have you ever done anything else?
________________________

Methos: I killed Silas! I liked Silas!
________________________

Duncan: "The Three Horsemen of the Apocolypse" - doesn't have the same ring to it, does it, Kronos?
________________________





Next up will be Forgive Us Our Trespasses. Look for it next week.

Comments

[eveningblue.livejournal.com]

I would imagine that one of the things that would have made watching these episodes exciting during the show's original run would have been not knowing whether or not Duncan would end up killing Methos.

By this point in the series, we knew that Duncan could be a hard, judgmental guy. He had just killed Ingrid, who, one could argue, didn't really deserve to die. Her worst crime had been killing morally questionable people. She'd never committed wholesale slaughter, as Methos had.

So why doesn't Duncan kill him?

[cyberducks.livejournal.com]

Because whether one believes in the slash aspect of that relationship or not - Duncan and Methos have something special, Methos means something to Mac, and in the end that something is more important to Mac than satisfying Cassandra with Methos' death.

[eveningblue.livejournal.com]

I am not talking about Cassandra. I am talking about Methos. Why did Duncan not judge him to need killing?

Duncan had "something special" with a lot of people. That didn't keep him from killing them. Yet, he lets Methos live.

Is it because Methos is not bad *now*? Is it because Methos ends up proving himself by killing Silas? Is it because Methos does not pose a threat to other people anymore? Surely, if Duncan saw himself as a punisher of past crimes, Methos would be dead. But he's not.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

Since I've been watching older eps, what I saw last night was "Blind Faith" and Duncan doesn't kill the formerly evil immie. And this was a guy he'd sworn to kill. Can't remember the guys name, but Duncan had met him in several war zones over the years. He was now some sort of faith leader.

[eveningblue.livejournal.com]

Oh, that's a really good point, I'd forgotten that one! Kirin, I think his name was. You're absolutely right, he doesn't kill him because he has changed. So I guess Duncan believes Methos has changed enough not to warrant killing.

[sophiedb.livejournal.com]

That brings up another question for me then - if Duncan believes that people can change over time, why did he kill Ingrid rather than giving her the chance to? By the sound of it she'd only been running rampant for 50-odd years (?), not a thousand, and she thought about her targets rather than general slaughter. Presumably she didn't have so far to 'come back' in comparison to Methos, but Duncan wasn't willing to see past the present. Anyone who's already turned away from the dark side is ok, anyone still there *bye bye* ?

Forgivness

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

I'm just guessing here, but maybe because Ingrid was a zealot? And she'd escalated as the years passed, finally to the point where she could mentally justify killing innocent bystanders. If she hadn't killed the cop in cold blood, and hadn't had her finger literally on the trigger, I'm not sure Duncan would have killed her.

Re: Forgivness

[eveningblue.livejournal.com]

Yes, it seemed to be the killing of the cop that pushed Duncan over the edge (you can see it in his face when the Interpol guy plays the police car radio tape for him).

I think you're right--he just can't abide the killing of innocents.

Re: Forgivness

[ekaterinn.livejournal.com]

Plus, Methos does lead Duncan and Cassandra to the base, and he kills Silas rather than Cassandra. Methos's pain is also so obvious at the end that I don't think Duncan could let her do it. One of the things Duncan is confronted with throughout the series is to see the world in shades of grey, and I'm guessing he *thought* about Methos's hundreds of years out of the Game, his (though rather ambivalent) help in tracking the other Horsemen and the man Duncan had come to know - and yes, made a judgement call not to kill him or let Cassandra do it.

[mischief5.livejournal.com]

Duncan was forced to kill Ingrid because she was not going to change no matter what he tried to do or say to convince her. Ingrid was certain that she was doing the "right" thing. People of righteous conviction are often the most dangerous people of all.

[sophiedb.livejournal.com]

*icon!guh* :)

You're right though - she was killing people who got in the way as well as her morally justifiable (to her) targets. To the Horsemen, everyone was fair game.

Icon

[mischief5.livejournal.com]

You can see the full sized version on Holy Ground in the Artist's Spotlight section. :) Holy Ground (http://holygroundforum.net)

[cyberducks.livejournal.com]

Grins, but Duncan and Methos had something "extra" special....seriously, I think it was a combination of Duncan realizing that Methos wanted Kronos gonelike Mac did, and he killed Silas after all - and that Methos had done those terrible things thousands of years ago - that's an awful long time and imo how would you be able to judge a people of so long ago or a single person with modern standards - and should you? For example, I have had discussions with people who call Alexander The Great a multiple murderer, while I call him a great conqueror by the standards of h i s time.

But in the end imo I think it comes back to the fact that Methos had become a core relationship for Mac - along with Tessa, Richie, Amanda, and Joe, and that Mac knew that Methos presented no threat in the present or the future.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

imo how would you be able to judge a people of so long ago or a single person with modern standards - and should you? For example, I have had discussions with people who call Alexander The Great a multiple murderer, while I call him a great conqueror by the standards of h i s time.

I had that same conversation! Someone I used to know fairly well online insisted that 'different times' didn't at all excuse Methos. That he was evil then, no matter that the times were different, so should be judged the same now. Then on an archeology list I was on, they started debating Alexander the Great, using about the same arguments each of us were. Talk about timing!

[cyberducks.livejournal.com]

yes! You cannot judge ancient people with modern standards - for example rape was not considered a crime the way we consider it now. If you think the world is divided now between people with power and people without, that was even more so in ancient times. You were either a master or a slave, and having slaves was not considered morally wrong either. I am not excusing the Horsemen, but the world was very different then.

[sophiedb.livejournal.com]

Definitely, and we don't have the full picture either. It's only in the last century that western culture's become relatively homogenous, so the differences between now and millennia ago must be incredible.

[rant] It doesn't help that archaeology itself is still trying to shake off early interpretations that were coloured by 'modern' perceptions but somehow linger on.. and the wholesale ransack of ancient sites that may or may not have been a good thing *cough* but it doesn't exactly help when trying to reconstruct ancient life [/rant]

[cyberducks.livejournal.com]

And more important to Mac than his sense or drive for justice.

Fan Reaction

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

I would imagine that one of the things that would have made watching these episodes exciting during the show's original run would have been not knowing whether or not Duncan would end up killing Methos.

I was on the PWFC list, and small social list, when these first aired, and there was absolute shock at Methos' past for some fans. There were people who basically wrote Methos off after it was all said and done.

Me? It all made sense to me. I was stunned, of course, but it fit into my concept of Methos quite well.

[multimedea.livejournal.com]

Even for being a judgemental guy, Duncan has never killed 'bad' Immortals/mortals willy-nilly (except in war or when out of his mind). There's usually two standards for him that apply for a MacLeod death sentence:

a) he's avenging a personal wrong that was done or,

b) the 'bad' person was a predicate offender that would kill and kill again without his intervention.

Neither situation really applied to Methos in his eyes. The personal wrong done to Cassandra was too divorced in time and distance for him to really act upon. (Even tho he said he would out of friendship's sake.) And he never truly believed Methos was about to commit even more heinous crimes. There are lots of instances where he spared others for those reasons (Kiem Sun/Felicia Martins/David Keogh/John Kirin/Warren Cochrane). The stand-out example of when he *didn't* stick to those precepts was in "Chivalry"...and look how that turned out.