'Comes a Horseman' & 'Revelation 6:8'

[ithildin]

Welcome to the thirteenth & fourteenth installment of Methos Episode Discussion. You can find the last one, for The Valkyrie here. All prior episode discussion links can be found over on the sidebar.

I have a hunch this one will generate a lot of comments, so I'm going to try and remember to use subject headers for comments to try and make it easier to sort.

Comes a Horseman & Revelation 6:8, Air Date: Feb. 1997

MacLeod knew him as Melvin Koren, a desperado who left a trail of death and fire across the Old West, but Cassandra remembers him as an evil far older. He is Kronos, leader of the Four Horsemen, mounted Bronze Age raiders who murdered, raped, and pillaged their way across two continents. Never was a band of Immortals more cruel or more feared. He destroyed Cassandra's people and she's been hunting him across the millenia. But Kronos has a different target now -- Methos.
__________________________
One by one, Kronos is putting the Four Horsemen back together. Once they struck fear in the hearts of men with sword and axe. Today, their weapons of destruction are different, but their goal is the same: to bring mankind what it fears most, the Apocalypse. Only Duncan MacLeod stands between them and the end of the world. ~ recap and quotes via tv.com

Quotes below the curtain:



Cassandra: My people, take me to them.
Methos: You want to see them? *points* There they are...Caspian keeps the heads, he'll think it'll make him smarter...so far it hasn't worked.
Cassandra: You killed them? All of them?
Methos: Including you.
________________________

Caspian: I fought as well as you. I killed more people.
Silas: Women and children don't count.
________________________

(a dagger is thrown at Methos's chest)
Kronos: Greetings, brother.
Methos: Kronos!
Kronos: I missed you too.
________________________

Methos: I think they love me.
Duncan: They'd love a hammerhead shark if it had a nice smile.
________________________

Joe: Are we talking the Horsemen from the Bible?
Duncan: No Joe, the Kentucky Derby.
Joe: Fine, we'll get my bookie on the phone, who we betting on? War? Famine?
Cassandra: Death
________________________

Methos: Look, I might not know who Chubby Checker is...but I know when it's time to leave.
________________________

Kronos: Well, you can either lose your head. Or you can join me.
Methos: Well, since you put it that way ... welcome back, brother!
________________________

Methos: So I'm a little weak on pop culture. Well, who the hell is Chubby Checker in the grand scheme of things, anyway? I mean I know how tall Nero was, Caeser's favorite food, I know Helen of Troy didn't have that great a face and it only launched a hundred ships not a thousand, and...
Duncan: Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...
________________________

Methos: I killed, but I didn't just kill fifty; I didn't kill a hundred; I killed a thousand; I killed ten thousand! And I was good at it. And it wasn't for vengeance; it wasn't for greed. It was because I liked it. Cassandra was nothing; her village was nothing. Do you know who I was? I was Death. (Methos laughs) Death, Death on a horse. When mothers warned their children that the monster would get them, that monster was me. I was the nightmare that kept them awake at night. Is that what you want to hear?! The answer is yes. Oh, yes.
________________________

Methos: It's been over a thousand years - he may not remember us.
Kronos: He'll remember - what we were you don't forget.
Methos: And if he doesn't want to come?
Kronos: He'll come...or he'll die.
________________________

Duncan: Kronos was right - you set the whole thing up, didn't you?
Methos: What d'you mean?
Duncan: You knew he'd come after Cassandra, and you let him because you knew I'd come after her. You couldn't kill him, but you hoped I could.
Methos: Maybe.
Duncan: 'Maybe.' Methos, what about Cassandra?
Methos: One of a thousand regrets, MacLeod, one of a thousand regrets.
________________________

Silas: MacLeod's here?
Methos: Yes. (Methos draws his sword)
Silas: You're challenging me? For the girl's head? Take it. She's yours, brother.
Methos: I am not your brother.
Silas: How can you do this? How can you go against what you are?
Methos: You don't know anything about me!
________________________

Kronos: You didn't really think I wouldn't know you'd tell MacLeod, did you?
Methos: It's not like you think it is.
Kronos: Ah, it's exactly like I think. My dearest brother, that's what makes you my perfect right arm; we think alike. We always have.
Methos: I doubt that, Kronos. No one thinks quite like you.
Kronos: Spoken like a true scholar.
________________________

Duncan: Why did you lie to me?
Methos: About what?
Duncan: About Cassandra, about who you were.
Methos: I have been many things, MacLeod.
Duncan: And who are you now?
________________________

Silas: Methos, you look troubled.
Methos: Just thinking.
Silas: Ah, you were always good at that, eh? And after all these years, you still are.
________________________

Caspian: You have a plan?
Kronos: I have a few thoughts. I have a few dollars, enough for a start. Now we have Methos; now we have a plan.
Methos: What did you have in mind?
Kronos: Once we rode out of the sun bringing death at the point of a sword. There was no man and no Immortal who could stand before us. We were death on horseback. They called us the end of the world. Well, gentlemen, I want to give them what they fear most, the apocalypse.
________________________

Silas: Methos! Hey, Methos! What the hell is this place?
Methos: This is Kronos's idea of Camelot.
Silas: Where are the stables, hm? The horses? Well, how do we ride?
Caspian: Where have you been for the last two thousand years, idiot? Living in the woods, and now you think we can just mount up and gallop down Broadway?
Silas: We can do whatever we please.
Caspian: Right. Four guys on horseback. Wild masks. They'll think we're in a circus.
Silas: They won't think it for long, will they?
________________________

Kronos: Two days on an airplane and another two on a horse. I hope you're not wasting my time.
Methos: I thought you enjoyed my company.
Kronos: Even for you, Methos, my patience has limits.
Methos: This is the place. I'm telling you, Kronos, he's here. Would I lie to you?
Kronos: Have you ever done anything else?
________________________

Methos: I killed Silas! I liked Silas!
________________________

Duncan: "The Three Horsemen of the Apocolypse" - doesn't have the same ring to it, does it, Kronos?
________________________





Next up will be Forgive Us Our Trespasses. Look for it next week.

Comments

[pat-t.livejournal.com]

Gosh, I've already talked about the church scene and my love for Cassandra *coffs*. What shall we talk about now? You want to pick a topic to start it off? This show starts out fun - you know. Duncan and Methos joking around - buddies (lovers) and then it turns ugly very quickly with the arrival of Kronos and Cassandra. Methos and Duncan's world falls apart. We find out a bit more about Methos' past and it isn't pretty.

We meet "stick boy", lol.

What does this show have? Friendship - tears - betrayal - anger - hurt- revenge - uncertainty.

And it changes the course for the rest of the series. Changes Duncan's and Methos' relationship forever - the easy trust is gone. Now they have to find a place where they can connect and start to rebuild the friendship.

This is what I think about when I think of CAH and Rev - it all comes down to this moment:

[enchantersnight.livejournal.com]

Yes I think picking topics would work best, my brain just shorted out trying to think where to start! a couple of my favourite quotes first then;

(a dagger is thrown at Methos's chest)
Kronos: Greetings, brother.
Methos: Kronos!
Kronos: I missed you too.

Methos: I think they love me.
Duncan: They'd love a hammerhead shark if it had a nice smile. (mm like that one a nice smile yes *sighs*)

Kronos: Well, you can either lose your head. Or you can join me.
Methos: Well, since you put it that way ... welcome back, brother!

anyone guess this may take a while :)

Silas: Methos, you look troubled.
Methos: Just thinking.
Silas: Ah, you were always good at that, eh? And after all these years, you still are.

(I liked Silas (is that wrong?) he seemed to be almost redeemable (or the fact I like something large to hug *runs off in shame*) (or playful/simple (see below) or maybe I should stop this line of thought having the hots for one psychopathic killer is bad but two!)

Silas: Methos! Hey, Methos! What the hell is this place?
Methos: This is Kronos's idea of Camelot.
Silas: Where are the stables, hm? The horses? Well, how do we ride?
Caspian: Where have you been for the last two thousand years, idiot? Living in the woods, and now you think we can just mount up and gallop down Broadway?
Silas: We can do whatever we please.
Caspian: Right. Four guys on horseback. Wild masks. They'll think we're in a circus.
Silas: They won't think it for long, will they?

The music here is almost sweet/soft with Methos talking to the brother he actually likes

Methos, resigned: "It will work." He moves closer. "Silas. For two thousand years we have lived without this. We have lived without the blood, the fear, the power."

Silas: "And for two thousand years I have dreamed of the day when we would ride again!" Smiles. "Like you always said, Methos: we live, we grow stronger. And then we fight."

I was near sobbing when Methos was at the end I liked Silas too!

*OK going into hiding now*

[pat-t.livejournal.com]

You know it's funny, but Silas is one of those characters that people just kind of loved. I think one reason is because Methos liked him too. And he didn't *seem* as bloodthirsty as the rest. But is that a fallacy? Hmm, got me to thinking. Will take this subject to my lj for further discussion. Carry on, lol.

Visual aids!

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

[hugs Pat] Pretty pictures first thing i see when I log on! Whheee! :) I knew there was a good reason to put the post up before I went to bed. Stuff to read *and* visual aids.

[sophiedb.livejournal.com]

Methos: I killed, but I didn't just kill fifty; I didn't kill a hundred; I killed a thousand; I killed ten thousand! And I was good at it. And it wasn't for vengeance; it wasn't for greed. It was because I liked it. Cassandra was nothing; her village was nothing. Do you know who I was? I was Death. (Methos laughs) Death, Death on a horse. When mothers warned their children that the monster would get them, that monster was me. I was the nightmare that kept them awake at night. Is that what you want to hear?! The answer is yes. Oh, yes.

Whether or not it was partly for shock value (get it through your head you stubborn Scottish bastard! *cough*), I love that little monologue :)

They almost had absolute power back then, didn't they? On a small scale, and time enough to cover most of the old world at least once a generation. Who needs a castle when you're a nightmare?



But the power didn't corrupt all of them absolutely, not forever (bless). I get the impression that it was more of a constant high, drunk on the fact that no-one could out-plan or out-live the four of them. There wouldn't have been as many Immortals either - small global population with a high rate of natural death in childhood, culling the pre-Immies before they got big enough to hold a weapon.

[eveningblue.livejournal.com]

When I watch this scene, the impression I get is that Methos is trying to push Duncan away. Maybe for his own good or maybe not, I don't know. But the way he turns from defensive and pleading to offensive and angry makes it seem almost like a dare, like "I did those things, yeah, what of it?" Like a challenge.

The Jimmy Scene

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

Now this was a subject I jotted down in my notes last night!

My take on the Jimmy scene was that Methos desperately wanted Duncan to
understand, that what they'd been through together would be enough for
Duncan to remember Methos was his friend, that he cared. But Duncan
judged him and turned his back on him.

I know that my POV differs markedly from most everyone else, but that was my first take on the scene, and it's held up for me over the years.

( have a Jimmy! Not a nice black one like Methos, but I have one. I
have been tempted to paint it black though.)

[majrgenrl8.livejournal.com]

So thoughts on the "break up" (I am so not a D/M slasher and it's totally a breakup scene) scene.

Methos knows he's going to need MacLeod. He's alreay got a plan and he's putting it into action. The question to ask is "Why was Methos loading up his Jimmy at that point?" The answer that I see is: becasue MacLeod could find him there.

Most of this season is Methos teaching MacLeod about moral ambiguity. This is where the lessons start to come of use. Now Methos certainly didn't know that Kronos would show up and want to get the band back together, but he probably always knew it was a possibility.

Methos is a master manipulator. He did what he did to get a specific reaction out of MacLeod. And he got it. What's great about CaH and R6:8 is that we see Methos work a situation from begining to end. We also get confirmation that this is what he's been doing for thousands of years. This is a part of the manipulation.

I always figured that he had a different plan until he found Cassandra at the dojo. He wasn't going to be as devious until he realized he had to be. He was showing up at MacLeod's to let him in on the plan. But once that was scrapped he needed a new one, a better one, one that took care of all his problems resulting from his wild youth.

"Start small and build." Not just a manipulation of Kronos, but a way of life.

[cyberducks.livejournal.com]

The show was really firing on all cylinders during those two episodes - together they play like a very exiting movie. Horton and Kronos were the best villains the series ever had, but while Horton was merely loathsome in his evilness, there is something special and attractive about Kronos, and something fascinating about the Methos/Kronos relationship - look at all the fan fic dealing with that relationship, and how sexulized a lot of it is. Methos of course was manipulating events as much as he was able dealing with Kronos - who is both predictable in that his basic mode of operating hasn't changed from back in the bad old days, and utterly unpredictable, as only a crazy sociopath can be. Methos of course has changed since the days of the Horsemen, and continues to change and adapt to times and circumstances, hence his longevity. Methos likes the way he is currently living, he wouldn't want to go back to being a murdering Horseman - and he knew from the moment he lay eyes on Kronos again, that for him to survive, for his comfortable way of life to survive, Kronos would have to go. Hence his manipulation of Duncan into doing the deed.

The only thing imo that doesn't work is the writing for and the way Cassandra is acted - I have never been able to muster the appropiate sympathy for that character - she is one note shrill and utterly unpleasant, and I blame the acting and writing.

[cyberducks.livejournal.com]

I meant of course "sexualized", gee...

[eveningblue.livejournal.com]

Methos of course has changed since the days of the Horsemen, and continues to change and adapt to times and circumstances, hence his longevity. Methos likes the way he is currently living, he wouldn't want to go back to being a murdering Horseman - and he knew from the moment he lay eyes on Kronos again, that for him to survive, for his comfortable way of life to survive, Kronos would have to go.

Yes, I think you're absolutely right about this. Much as we would like him to betray Kronos because it's the "right" thing to do, he knows that he and Kronos and the rest can never really be the Horsemen again; they're not invincible, they will get caught, and that would threaten his survival.

Or do you think Methos has really changed and now is a better person?

And what does Duncan think?

[cyberducks.livejournal.com]

Well, he has moved on from the raping, and killing, and murdering ways - but he needs Kronos gone for survival reasons, not for society and moralities sake.

[eveningblue.livejournal.com]

I would imagine that one of the things that would have made watching these episodes exciting during the show's original run would have been not knowing whether or not Duncan would end up killing Methos.

By this point in the series, we knew that Duncan could be a hard, judgmental guy. He had just killed Ingrid, who, one could argue, didn't really deserve to die. Her worst crime had been killing morally questionable people. She'd never committed wholesale slaughter, as Methos had.

So why doesn't Duncan kill him?

[cyberducks.livejournal.com]

Because whether one believes in the slash aspect of that relationship or not - Duncan and Methos have something special, Methos means something to Mac, and in the end that something is more important to Mac than satisfying Cassandra with Methos' death.

[eveningblue.livejournal.com]

I am not talking about Cassandra. I am talking about Methos. Why did Duncan not judge him to need killing?

Duncan had "something special" with a lot of people. That didn't keep him from killing them. Yet, he lets Methos live.

Is it because Methos is not bad *now*? Is it because Methos ends up proving himself by killing Silas? Is it because Methos does not pose a threat to other people anymore? Surely, if Duncan saw himself as a punisher of past crimes, Methos would be dead. But he's not.

[cyberducks.livejournal.com]

And more important to Mac than his sense or drive for justice.

Fan Reaction

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

I would imagine that one of the things that would have made watching these episodes exciting during the show's original run would have been not knowing whether or not Duncan would end up killing Methos.

I was on the PWFC list, and small social list, when these first aired, and there was absolute shock at Methos' past for some fans. There were people who basically wrote Methos off after it was all said and done.

Me? It all made sense to me. I was stunned, of course, but it fit into my concept of Methos quite well.

[multimedea.livejournal.com]

Even for being a judgemental guy, Duncan has never killed 'bad' Immortals/mortals willy-nilly (except in war or when out of his mind). There's usually two standards for him that apply for a MacLeod death sentence:

a) he's avenging a personal wrong that was done or,

b) the 'bad' person was a predicate offender that would kill and kill again without his intervention.

Neither situation really applied to Methos in his eyes. The personal wrong done to Cassandra was too divorced in time and distance for him to really act upon. (Even tho he said he would out of friendship's sake.) And he never truly believed Methos was about to commit even more heinous crimes. There are lots of instances where he spared others for those reasons (Kiem Sun/Felicia Martins/David Keogh/John Kirin/Warren Cochrane). The stand-out example of when he *didn't* stick to those precepts was in "Chivalry"...and look how that turned out.

In the Beginning

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

In the beginning, before the dagger through the heart, Methos assuming the immie he felt was Mac. Geez. He should know better, not to mention it never seemed very in character for Methos, and since I rag on Cassandra later on, I figured I should play fair :)

&

Why did Methos go to see Duncan? Other than a CPD to put him and Cass in
the same place. Was he going to spin some tale, was he just going to say he was leaving town? Was he going to give him some version of the truth?

Re: In the Beginning

[kethali.livejournal.com]

Why did Methos go to see Duncan? Other than a CPD to put him and Cass in the same place. Was he going to spin some tale, was he just going to say he was leaving town? Was he going to give him some version of the truth?

I don't believe he would assume that Duncan knew anything about Kronos or Methos' history. Nor could he possibly guess Cassandra would be at Duncan's, hunting; for that matter, he may have not even known the two were acquainted. So I am going to guess Methos was about to skip town--a safe thing to do under the circumstances--and this was the "You're still alive, right? Well, bye for now" visit, since they'd parted with Duncan going to investigate an unknown Immortal's presence (Methos didn't know it had been Kronos, remember?)

Re: In the Beginning

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

No, I don't think he had any clue about any of it. It just always seemed that it would make more sense for Methos to just leave -- maybe leave a message on his phone -- instead of getting cornered by Duncan as to why he was leaving. But they did need to get him, Mac, and Cass in the same place, so I guess him dropping by to say 'I'm leaving town for a bit' worked as well as anything.

Timing Questions

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

Kronos and Methos spend days riding to find Silas, then days riding
back, then they finally go to fetch Caspian. How come Duncan and Cassandra get to the asylum after they do? They only had to make one trip to Bucharest.

I know, we're probably not supposed to notice :)

&

At the end, how much time passed between the sub base and the '1000 Regrets' meeting in the cemetery? (A meeting on Holy Ground.) (Just a passing thought) I've often wondered what happened right after Cass walked away. Other than figuring Methos got rid of the pathogen.

And how much time between that and Forgive Us Our Trespasses?

Re: Timing Questions

[ekaterinn.livejournal.com]

At the end, how much time passed between the sub base and the '1000 Regrets' meeting in the cemetery?

I always figured that meeting happened a few days afterwards, though I don't have any guesses as to who suggested it. Both Duncan and Methos were careful with each other - you could see that the wounds, so to speak, were still fresh.

The Ultimate Trust?

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

Something only really occures to me when I was taking notes last night. As they're walking down that long hall to the monkey room... do they go unarmed around each other? It seems like they are. Only Methos is wearing a coat long enough to have his sword. And then their weapons always seem to be lying in front of their places at the table.

The ultimate trust between 'brothers'?

Re: The Ultimate Trust?

[sophiedb.livejournal.com]

Heh. I suspect they all had some other form of weaponry concealed about their persons.. dagger, gun, poisoned dart..

I definitely can't see survivor-holic Methos hanging out with his brothers (especially Kronos) without something, Kronos has eyes in the back of his head where Methos is concerned, Silas probably carries around a pocket-knife for cutting up food if nothing else (my granddad does, so why not some backwoods Immortal who still wants a horse?) and Caspian.. probably has something handy in case he finds a nice victim round the corner. Yeh, fumbling..

Anyway, just because we can't see swords doesn't mean there's nothing there. I reckon it's just a courtesy to each other that the easiest means to truly kill each other aren't on display (probably kept by the front door - take off your shoes and leave your sword at the door - or the little Horsemen's playroom) :)