ithildin | Cold?

I've often wondered about that. I mean, maybe th eir idea of a cold is like what normal mortals refers to as a full blown flu and all they get is a sniffle and then their immune system or whatever it is kicks in and that's it. That's their cold, a sniffle.

*shrug*

And if they can get a cold, can they get other things?

Well, they are affected by things. They feel pain, can be poisoned, they bleed -- they even die. Duncan has died many, many times. But they survive. They recover, and their bodies go back to normal. So, I would imagine they could get a cold, but it would be over very fast.

Yeah, like the plague... or maybe that's like the flu to them?

*ponders*

Have you read Loch Ness's And Then Some? In it, Methos gets the plague, and he's had it before. And he dies from it. A couple of times, actually, before his body finally beats it.

It is canon that Immortals cannot regenerate limbs. I haven't seen any episodes yet about serious illness, so I guess that's up to us to interpret. I'd agree that Immortals do get sick, but that their bodies heal much more quickly than mortals' bodies do. Fanfic writers get to think about and decide just how quickly that would be, for various diseases.

No, I haven't read it, but it sure sounds plausible IMHO. Since alot of my recent fic has been set either in present day hospitals or in the future, I've been wondering about alien diseases that affect humans. Like Rigellian Fever from Star Trek [g]

And here's a question: what about immunity? Would an immie who got smalpox be immune from it after? Or would their immie systems totally purge all remnants from their systems?

Worms!

Worms! LOL, and then what about parasites, both internal and external?
*snickers* The amazing lice-free horsemen? Become immortal, never scratch again! *eg*

[snorfle]

Actually (and may people more knowledgeable correct me if I'm wrong) I've always thought that they get ill, injured etc like mortals, only recuperate better/faster/from more advanced situations than mortals do. Basically, organisms with really good immune systems and regenerative abilites. But I think it has never been explored much in canon (illnesses at least not, traumas more - like Kalas' neck wound). Would be interesting to speculate whether they'd have to die from illnesses that'd normally kill a mortal, and come back ...or would they just be affected to a lesser degree or not at all (*imagines Caspian being so nasty because of permanent subclincal liver fluke infestation combined with rabies* *eg*). Would they get well faster if they die (like a restart *gg*)? I think for example Leslie Fish has a similar concept written in her Sins of Omission series (Father Riley, an old mmortal discovering that if he basically breaks all his bones, the immortal healing will not only restore them to the previous aged condition, but basically cure previous problems like arthritis too).
It's a really fascinating topic to discuss...unfortunately I gotta get back to epidemiology class for now...so maybe more, later?

about severe, acquired chronic illnesses. Can they get them, or are their immune systems too effective? What about something ultimately lethal like AIDS - would that just be 'neutralised' by an immortal immune system, or could it turn into, say, a chronic-but-not-lethal (perhaps not even particularly serious in terms of symptoms) thing? Could a mortal catch it off an immortal even though the immortal doesn't have symptoms? Etc.

Yeesh. Can of worms....

Yeesh. Can of worms....
And it is open...I can't get it closed!!! *sits on lid*
I'm sitting in an epidemiology course, for chrissakes, and I'm a vet...aaarghh!
Could a mortal catch it off an immortal even though the immortal doesn't have symptoms? In basic biological sense, first, I'm sure they could carry infectios disease passively (if it's that kind of disease organism that survives in the environment). As to the disease organisms that'd require hosts to replicate - well, that'd depend exactly on whether they do get sick but recuperate faster, get sick occasionally (with organisms of high virulence/pathogenicity) or don't get sick at all. Respectively, it'd translate into "yes, they'd carry and replicate diseas without showing it much", "yes, they'd do it in some cases", and "no, they'd only act as passive carriers of contagion".
What about something ultimately lethal like AIDS - same diff as above, I'd say. But I think considering they're supposed to be like mortals in most aspect, I'd go with the idea that they just have much stronger immune systems and some genetic makeup dictating eithermuch faster cell turnover and/or lack of cell death. *grins* Ya know, a bit like cancer cells? that are just cells that don't have that part of gnetic command/info that tells acell to die at a proper time.
I actually have a plot idea hatching for a fic evolving around the use of immortals as organ/blood donors and why is that a bad idea, but god knows if it's ever going to get flesh on bones...

Hehe, yep I've done epidemiology too (biological anth degree *lol*) - this really is a can of worms with so many ways to play it. My head's whizzing all over the place now!

I actually have a plot idea hatching for a fic evolving around the use of immortals as organ/blood donors and why is that a bad idea, but god knows if it's ever going to get flesh on bones...

*blink* ooooh, shiny.. eek, the possibilities.. some very very scary.. GAH! *gets the anti-bunny spray*

about severe, acquired chronic illnesses
Also, isn't pretty much canon that immortals can have mental illness? Considering a lot of mental illness can be at least partly contributed to internal chemical imbalance, that'd make it 'yes, they can aquire severe chronic illnesses'. Or is any mental illness in an immortal by default only psychological? (also, would it be physiologically possible?)
*plainitive* now see what's happened...I'm using coffee breaks to discuss immortal physiology *grins*

*is not able to shut up* I can't recall whether it's explicitly stated in canon that only violent death would turn a pre-immortal into an immortal - what about death due to an illness? Poison?

I just got online. The things that set us all off give me a giggle :) But I'm thrilled! This is one of the things I mental arguments about, especially when I'm planning/writing fic, so it's nice to have real people to talk to. (you are all real, right?)

The poison/violent death question! I remember it being discussed on a list many years ago, and of course, no one could agree. I mean, what exactly is a violent death? Some poisons have pretty 'violent' reactions. How about falling asleep and drowning in the bathtub? Or an overdose of sleeping pills? I'm pretty sure that death by an illness won't trigger immortality. I've actually used the 'dying of a terminal illness, but it needs to be a violent death' premise in a fic, and I was fairly certain that was canon when I wrote it. Hope so, cus otherwise, Methos stabbed someone in the heart for no reason :) Ah, he'll get over it...

But why wouldn't death by disease "trigger" Immortality? Don't you have the Immortal pre-presence no matter what? How would how you die affect that?

[shrug] Remember the episode where we see how Amanda became immortal? At the time, a lot of viewers thought she'd died of plague, as opposed to having her head bashed in. I remember it being categorically stated that Immortality can't be triggered by death from disease, only violent death. Come to think of it, I think that's when the whole poison discussion started. As to why, I have no idea [g]

I've never seen the programme, but I do remember someone discussing a 'Raven' episode in which Amanda shoots a pre-immie rather than let him die from poison gas because only a violent death could trigger immortality.

Oh yes! I'd forgotten that entirely.

Okay, here are some wild and wacky theories that I've played with!

I was toying with the idea of 'Immortality' being made possible by an (super) over active thymus lymph (situated in the base of the neck and an important part of a human's immune system) I always thought that Kalas's neck injury was a bit suspect, but if you factor in the thymus gland (which is placed in the same approximate spot as the scar) you could go with the idea that the thymus gland had been damaged, and wasn't up to par when it healed the wound.

Then there is that 'moment of death' theory in which the brain does a last minute check on all the body's systems when it has been a dealt a death blow (And I sound like I'm describing DATA, don't I?) to see if it can repair it.

999,999,999 times out of a 1,000,000,000 this doesn't help but there is that lucky one...

In other words, theory number two is: A latent gene becoming active, triggered by a body death experience? (I was never convinced that Immortals truly died, I mean, did anyone ever check for brain death?)

Yes, I know these are the ramblings of insanity. I can't help myself!

A latent gene becoming active, triggered by a body death experience? *applauds* Yes, that's a good theory, I've thought along the similar lines. Though that would most likely mean that it can be any kind of death, not necessarily a 'violent' one.
Also, re: Kalas neck wound and a bit off the tangent - have you ever considered that it not healing might have had a psychiological background? I mean, in people, 'having faith' in something plays a rather substantial part as an additional factor, also in recuperation sense. We tend to use only quite small part of our brain resources conciously. So, lets stipulate that immies have a bit larger resources *g* and some of them have learned to use them (Cassandra, Connor, Ramirez, Kantos...etc) in one area or another; but majority is not really aware of the power of their, lets say subconcious, and operate only in the constraints of their previous mortal life preconceptions (and not at a level of a mortal who'd developed oneself in that area either). So basically, what I was trying to say with that rambling was that perhaps Kalas neck wound won't heal because he believes it can't, hasn't gotten over that horrible moment when he almost died. Would an immortal who didn't believe he'd revive stay dead longer? Would this partly explain why younder immortals are supposedly dead longer (is this canon or fanon, btw?)? Would there be a difference in 'staying dead time' if an immortal had a enough time (enough seconds) to realize it's going to happen and just get into the mindset of reviving *g* as opposed to a suddden deat where he'd not even get what happened? (the analogy being that if in a split second you see the punch coming and know you're going to fall, you will more likely fall with less damage and get up faster than when it takes you by surprise).
Hmmm...would the difference between 'died of illness/slow poison, did not become an immie' and 'died of violent/more sudden cause, became an immie' have something to do with the internal acceptance of death as an inevitable outcome in the first case and not in teh second? Basically, would a pre-immie who stubbornly refuses to believe in dying, be more likel to become immortal?
*shuffles feet shamefaced* Sorry for lenghty theory rambles...it's just that I'm still away on a course - which means brain activated by study+nothing to do on lunchbreak.

Yes, I think psychology could play a big part of it two, though how much I don't know. The thing is, I think a lot of the decisions made about first death on the programme were due to practicalities. If all potential immortalsI actually became immortals, then for every Highlander, there would be a dozen geriactric immortals running around, after dying from old age!

I think that the whole first death issue will never be totally resolved, primarily because of the origin question. They're all foundlings after all...and I have a few theories on that too:-)

Don't apologise for the school=active brain thing, I know exactly where you're coming from! I've just finished a college year (mature student) and suddenly find my brain twitching from inactivity. That, plus the fact that I've just indulged in a major DVD spree (including Highlander), has my brain coming up with all sorts of stuff :-)

Amanda shoots a pre-immie rather than let him die from poison gas because only a violent death could trigger immortality.
And I do wonder wheher this in canon is something someone has tested, or is it just 'known', like 'there can be only one', meaning it can be another 'folk wisdom', not necessarily true?

I had similar thoughts but then I remembered who Amanda's teacher was. Rebecca always struck me as someone who was very clued in.

Yeah, it is. And I now have so much more fodder for the the sequel to a fic I worte a few months back that dealt with brain damge/mental illness in an Immie! I've been wanting to go back and deal with the afteraffects of the event.

*imagines Caspian being so nasty because of permanent subclincal liver fluke infestation combined with rabies* *eg*

Ewww! Which makes me think of.... wait for it... syphilis! What about all those sorts of diseases? I know a common convention in fic is that Immies are the ultimate in safe sex. But are they really, I wonder? Trust me to be the one to enter that into the conversation (well, I think I did, but I haven't got to every single comment yet). But hey, I make a random post, I go to bed, and I come back to find all this! I can't help myself.

Talk about a can of worms *g*. I have a question. Everyone talks about Immortal's immune systems - is it *ever* discussed or even mentioned in canon that they have better immune systems? Or is it that they are effected just like we are until they die and then their bodies repair and they revive? I just don't seem to remember it even being brought up, except in this instance. And then Duncan's reply, to me, is that they can get a cold just like any other human on the planet, but if they die, they come back.

I don't think it's been brought up in canon..but then, lots of my canon knowledge is 10 years old *looks forward to summer with 6 seasons on dvd*.
Hmmmm...I wonder whether David Abramovitz will be on Vancouver con? We should ask him *ggg*.

P.S. Pat, thank you very much - I got the collector and l word Peter - just have to wait until I'm back home to watch..

Tickleing at the back of my brain, I have a memory of a similar exchange between Duncan and... Richie? But that's all I can pin down. Anyone out there remember that? Or is it my imagination?

I think it was Counterfeit Part 1. Mac and Rich were waiting for Horton's people to ambush them at the barge and Rich was complaining that he was freezing and would catch a cold. Mac said not to worry, he wouldn't die of it...

Yes! That was it. Thank you :)

Here's a riddle for you:

If the body cannot regenerate limbs, it would stand to reason that it cannot regenerate organs, either.

So what if an Immortal had his or her heart ripped out?

Actually, that reminds me of one probably little-explored question - can you imagine how vulnerable an immortal is during a death? Mostly I guess we tend to concentrate on how lucky they are to revive. But what thay can or can't regenerate notwhitstanding, a large chunk of those deaths tend to happen in a situation where vulnerability is very bad from the ultimate survival point of view. So sometimes I think that dying for an immortal wouldn't be quite that run-of-the-mill experience it sometimes gets described as, and not only for the physical discomfort involved - it's still the ultimate trip into the unknown - they never know if they're going to get back up again or whether this is IT. Which also brings me to the point that when an immortal character is tortured (to give up information for example), I'm not convinced dying would be an 'easy out', before the pain/torture grows great enough to override self preservation instinct.
As to the regeneration of limbs etc...wasnt Nefertiri entombed for a while? Which would have meant removing internal organs for the mummification process. So if canon says 'no regeneration of limbs' then it's contradicting itself *biiig surprise eg*. Because, no regeneration of a toe, for example, but will grow a new liver? Well, duh. Or we can try to get around it saying *they can regenerate as long as the head is attached (and maybe a reasonable chunk of the torso too), but it takes a hell of a long time?

Absolutely fascinating discussion, and I'm enjoying it muchly.

So if canon says 'no regeneration of limbs' then it's contradicting itself

It doesn't, actually. What we know about this is that Xavier had his hand lopped off in February of 1993, and he hadn't grown it back a year or so later. Nobody actually says anything about whether he will, eventually, grow it back. Nobody says anything about whether a year is an unusually long time for the regeneration to take, or when he might expect to see that hand again.

Nefertiri is a whole story in and of herself. Some people say that the fact that Duncan sensed her means that the "buzz" persists through death. But I'd say it's more likely she wasn't dead when he sensed her. Perhaps she spent 2000 years dying and reviving again. Perhaps it took her 50 years to grow everything back -- or 5 days. We really don't have any canon to tell us.

As for the violent death, that was made canon by Raven and by Endgame, for those who accept those two sources as canon. Connor specifically says it's the "shock of a violent death" that triggers Immortality.

I love all the ideas about why sometimes death lasts longer, and why neck wounds might not heal, etc. Some of these I haven't heard before.

In Rhiannon's Linewars, she suggested that an Immortal could regrow a limb but that they were so vulnerable during that time that they usually were killed before the regeneration process could be completed. However, if they had someone to protect them until they were whole again, it was possible.

Also, on the neck wounds: I always thought that if the cut was close enough to decapitation it wouldn't heal completely. Thus both Kalas and The Kurgan were left with scars. I guess that will teach you to mess with the MacLeods. VBEG

I've often wondered if a limb would grow back, it would just take decades.

My feeling was that Nefertiri just happened to be alive for those few moments Duncan felt her. Reviving and dying, over and over like the seas captain guy in the second Kenny eppy.

In the last season of Forever Knight they dealt with lomb loss in a vampire. Turned out they had to find the limb and reattach it so it would grow back together.

I remember nothing from Endgame [g] Except Methos' pink shirt. Or was it coral? I do remember drinking several lovely margaritas after though!

I would think that being an immie combined with torture would be pretty horrific. Years and years ago, I remember reading a fic where Methos was in a concentration camp during WWII. [shudder]

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Cold?

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