ithildin | 'Forgive Us Our Trespasses'

Welcome to the fifteenth installment of Methos Episode Discussion. You can find the last one, for CaH & R6:8 here. All prior episode discussion links can be found over on the sidebar.

Forgive Us Our Trespasses, Air Date: May 1997

After the Scottish massacre at the Battle of Culloden in 1746, Duncan MacLeod was a man possessed, obsessed, with killing the English bastards who had destroyed his people. Now Immortal Steven Keane has come to make MacLeod pay for his murderous crimes. Amanda urges MacLeod to take Keane's head and be done with it, but in his heart MacLeod knows that Keane is right -- he is a murderer -- and that Keane is judging him just like MacLeod has judged so many others. ~ recap and quotes via tv.com

Quotes below the curtain

Duncan: You should write fortune cookies.
Methos: Yeah? Maybe I should, just so long as I'm not writing your epitaph.
________________________

Methos: I just came by to watch the perfect Immortal die.
Duncan: I'm not!
Methos: Not what? Not the perfect Immortal or not gonna die?
________________________

Amanda: Duncan, you're the best man I know. You make people better, you know - people like me, people who didn't give a damn about anything in their whole lives until you came along with your big brown eyes and your boyscout rules.
________________________

Amanda: Methos. Open the door. I know you're there. Methos! Methos, it's Amanda!
Methos: Do you want to knock a bit louder? I don't think they heard you in Philadelphia!
________________________

Methos: (to Duncan) You wanted to kill; you killed them. You know, Keane is just like you; he wants to divide the world up into good and bad. Well, it's not that simple. We are all both, good and evil. We have rage and compassion. We have love and hate. Murder and forgiveness. Why don't you try forgiving yourself for once.
________________________

Duncan It's Tuesday. He doesn't take heads on Tuesdays.

Next up will be The Modern Prometheus. Look for it next week.

Page 1 of 3 << [1] [2] [3] >>

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

One of the most interesting facets of this episodes is that Duncan was essentially the "bad guy". He had hunted down other Immortals for what evils they had done and now it was his turn to be hunted for his wrongs.

The other side of the story is that this is the first time we see Methos post-Bordeaux and the Horsemen. His words to Duncan: ("You wanted to kill; you killed them. You know, Keane is just like you; he wants to divide the world up into good and bad. Well, it's not that simple. We are all both, good and evil. We have rage and compassion. We have love and hate. Murder and forgiveness. Why don't you try forgiving yourself for once.") are as close to an *honest* explanation of his time with Kronos and company as he ever gets.

And it's not an apology. Methos doesn't apologize. I think that's a major flaw in fanfic when a writer has Methos begging Duncan for a chance to rationalize what he did with the Horsemen or offer an abject apology. That's just not Methos. He knows what he did and he lives with it. That's the point he's trying to make with Duncan in this scene. For whatever reasons, at that given time, you made a choice. Live with it and move on. Methos may feel regret but never guilt. It's a subtle difference but it's there.

I'm really looking forward to this discussion. I'm hoping it will help me mentally iron out my conflicted feelings. I'm working on a story that's set during this ep, and I've been doing lots of mental wrestling.

And it's not an apology. Methos doesn't apologize. I think that's a major flaw in fanfic when a writer has Methos begging Duncan for a chance to rationalize what he did with the Horsemen or offer an abject apology. That's just not Methos. He knows what he did and he lives with it. That's the point he's trying to make with Duncan in this scene. For whatever reasons, at that given time, you made a choice. Live with it and move on. Methos may feel regret but never guilt. It's a subtle difference but it's there.

I agree, and yet, I keep coming back to why does Methos get in the middle of it? Duncan has treated him like crap, yet he actually gets in the middle of it, shoots Duncan and fights Keane. Methos! I could see him going to talk to Duncan, but actually deciding to fight Keane himself? Why? And that's the crux of my mental wrestling :) My current feelings? That he felt he owed Duncan because Duncan asked for his life when Cassandra was going to lop his head off with Silas's axe. That's about all I can come up with. So I'm really interested in what other thoughts might be.

I may be misremembering, but I think on the extra DVD bits, Peter sorts of asks the same thing, why is Methos getting in the middle of this? I think it's this episode, at least.

Why is Methos in the middle of this? I can think of three reasons:

1. "You are too important to lose!!"
2. Amanda. I think Methos genuinely cares about her, even though he sometimes sees her as a pest, and he knows that she has Mac's best interests at heart. So he lets her talk him into "helping" Duncan.
3. Methos has a sly, subterranean mean streak. This is his chance to obliquely rub Mac's nose in Methos' role with the Horsemen. "I'm here to watch the Perfect Immortal die." That's Methos at his bitchy best.

And there could be other reasons, such as just an excuse or a need to reconnect with Mac in some way after Bordeaux. You just never know for sure with Methos. Trying to pin him down is like trying to herd cats. ;)

I can go along with that, but it still seems that it is a huge step from talking to him, being wonderfully snarky (I love the snark in that bit!) and trying to get him to see sense to actually shooting him and taking Keane on himself. That's the leap that I wonder about. He doesn't know how good Keane is, there's no guarantee that he will win, yet he literally risks his own life anyway.

Hah! This just occured to me... since Keane was pretty much a twin of Duncan, maybe Methos decided to fight him as a stand in for the real thing. Therapy [g] " I can't whack Mac, but I can the pain in the ass Keane".

Sorry, a little silliness invaded there :)

Not sure whether to be embarrassed to be the first to mention Methos in his boxer shorts!

*blush*

OK onto episode, I liked this one *and not just for the near naked PW* I did wonder why Methos went to all the trouble of fighting Keane but loved him shooting Duncan in the back that was so Methos! and this was great.

Methos: I just came by to watch the perfect Immortal die.
Duncan: I'm not!
Methos: Not what? Not the perfect Immortal or not gonna die?

I suppose I agree that maybe he was doing Amanda a favour and/or as a thank you to Duncan for sparing his life from Cassandra.

I thought it may have been a bit mean of them at the end though snuggling down together and poor Methos wandering back to his apartment alone

(Oh that sounds like I wanted him to join in!) not what I was thinking though :)

Not sure whether to be embarrassed to be the first to mention Methos in his boxer shorts!

Welll, that's one of the first things that comes to my mind! That, and from the blooper reel: "Then we'll have our own show!" He says that when Amanda says "He could die".

OK onto episode, I liked this one *and not just for the near naked PW* I did wonder why Methos went to all the trouble of fighting Keane but loved him shooting Duncan in the back that was so Methos! and this was great.

Reasons aside, him shooting Duncan, and the "you're such a pain in the ass" is one of my favourite scenes in HL ever.

I thought it may have been a bit mean of them at the end though snuggling down together and poor Methos wandering back to his apartment alone

(Oh that sounds like I wanted him to join in!) not what I was thinking though :)

Hah!! Sure you weren't [weg]

This is something people always seem to forget: METHOS WAS DEATH. "Just because I don't like to kill, doesn't mean I can't."

This is not a man who is out of shape or out of training. He is smart, fast and mean. He will use any advantage to survive including dumping both himself and his opponent into the Seine. He has no code of honor, no sense of chivalry and no sentimentality to cloud his judgment. He is the original hardass.

Methos also hides in plain sight. He deliberately allows his opponents to underestimate him. He is a walking, talking lie. He knew that Keane would misjudge him. He counted on Keane misjudging him. And your comment below has a ring of truth to it. Keane was very like MacLeod and Methos was prepared to use that against him.

Methos is a walking arsenal. He had three weapons on him that day *that we saw*: his sword, a main gauche and a silenced semiautomatic pistol. He was fully prepared to take Keane and would have done if MacLeod hadn't stopped him. He had calculated the risks and found them to be minimal. If you watch the fight with Keane, you'll see that Methos' body language shows complete confidence. Watch the fight with Morgan Walker in "Indiscretions" and you'll see something a bit different. Walker was much larger than Methos and was just hammering away at him so Methos electrocuted them both. Smart move because then it was a matter of who revived first and got to his sword first that decided who won. Now that was the greater risk.

Stephen Keane was easy and Methos knew it.

This is something people always seem to forget: METHOS WAS DEATH. "Just because I don't like to kill, doesn't mean I can't."

Have to disagree with you there. I haven't forgotten. Honest :) *For me*, my personal take, the way I understand Methos, him choosing to fight Keane is more than just a whim. He fights if backed into a corner, yes, he's good, yes, very good in fact, but he doesn't seek out fights. He walks away whenever he can. He told Amanda he'd never heard of Keane, now assuming he was telling the truth, Keane was an unknown quantity when Methos decided to fight him. Methos taking that sort of chance -- something more is going on. IMHO of course.

I love the boxer shorts. Everyone loves the boxer shorts. Now go back and watch that scene again and try to ignore the boxer shorts!!

Watch how Methos moves. One moment he's sound asleep then he feels the buzz. In less than a second, he's up, across the room with his sword in hand and on guard. I tried to freeze frame it to get screen caps as he went from bed to wall but he moved so fast it was just a blur!!

I keep saying this but no one takes me seriously. Everyone falls for sweet, shy Adam Pierson all hunched over in his raincoat. Don't let him fool you! Don't confuse Adam Pierson with Methos. Adam Pierson is just a mask. (I would love it if some vidder did one of Methos/Adam to Billy Joel's "The Stranger".) The real Methos is a stone cold bastard. Don't ever forget it and don't ever turn your back on him.

Sweet Brigid, I adore him... :)

How much time do you think a 5K Immortal needs to evaluate a pup like Keane? Methos had him pegged in the time it took to warn him off. The fact that Keane didn't listen sealed it for Methos. *Noble, pig-headed idiot. Plays by the Rules just like the one I just shot.* The smirk on Methos' face told the whole story. Gotcha!

Fantastic acting by Peter Wingfield.

Okay, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one :)

It doesn't seem that odd to me. From Methos's point of view, as usual, Duncan's behaving rashly. Based on his code of honor, he's about to do something Methos and Amanda think is stupid, and Methos steps in almost from exasperation. He can't talk Duncan out of the fight, he can't talk Keane out of the fight. Possibly he's aware of Keane's level of skill and Keane's own idea of a fair fight -- he uses an unexpected feint and pulls a second weapon to kill him, which Keane complained about. If Duncan hadn't interrupted, taking Keane's head would have been a sharp practical application of Methos's advice and quite unapologetic, almost hostile. Screw you, you pain in the ass. I saved you, anyway.

I don't see Duncan treating Methos badly. He's slowly getting over his disillusionment and anger. He doesn't like the kind of advice Methos gives, repeatedly, and prefers to solve the problem according to his own lights. They're both pissed off at each other but keeping the friendship alive.

Maybe we need MacGeorge to interpret this one for us. VBEG She always seems to be the last word on Methos. Oh, MacG???

Well it isn't the first time I'm totally marching to the beat of my own drum, nor will it be the last [g]

Screw you, you pain in the ass. I saved you, anyway.

I like that!

I'm in complete agreement with Univos. Methos can and will do *anything* to make sure Duncan MacLeod is not 'lost'. Especially when Mac's own moral ambivalence about a situation puts him in harm's way of an Immortal who knows how to take advantage of that fact (Keane/Kristen/Liam O'Roarke). And if it takes him putting his hand in the matter directly and eliminating a dangerous obsticle that Mac's put on blinders for, he'll do it. Duncan might get mad at him about it (for a *long* time), but to his reckoning, MacLeod's still alive to get bitchy about it. Note that he doesn't directly interfere in all of Mac's confrontations because he does know that a MacLeod on Moral Autopilot is an unbeatable force.

Also gotta mention--as a card-carrying member of the Methos Boxer Brigade--the ROG is too hot in his skivvies! ;D

Anyone have an idea of how much time passed between the end of Rev 6:8 and the beginning of this episode?

Okay, so I could put this action of Methos in the same category as him helping Duncan after the DQ? Since Duncan was much more of a danger to him at that point than Keane is to him here... . [ponders]

This is really just a half formed thought at this point, but I'll think about it :)

I keep saying this but no one takes me seriously. Everyone falls for sweet, shy Adam Pierson all hunched over in his raincoat. Don't let him fool you! Don't confuse Adam Pierson with Methos. Adam Pierson is just a mask.

If you look at some of the older ep discussions, you'll see that the subject of Adam as a persona is something that came up fairly frequently. How in certain scenes he was Methos, not Adam, and how Methos came more and more to the forefront as time went on.

Do you want actual time, Highlander time or theoretical time?

Actual time: given a 7 day shooting schedule with weekends (supposedly) off: about 5 or 6 weeks, give a few days.

Highlander time: there were four episodes between Rev 6:8 and FUOT but one was "A Highlander Fable: The Stone of Scone", so three weeks.

Theoretical time: As much as you like, within reason. Rev 6:8 looks like late Fall in Bordeaux; FOUT looks like Paris in winter.

Does that sound about right?

Sorry, I meant time for the characters, so theoretical time. Mentally, I think I assumed at least two months had gone by, don't know why :)

I'll take a look thank you. I haven't have this much fun with HL in a long time. And thank you for agreeing to disagree so gracefully instead of telling me I'm a waste of bandwidth! The opinions expressed so far are all good ones and I think they can be taken as different facets of the same diamond; none of them wrong just shining in a slightly different way!

Two months has a good feel to it. It allows for plenty of 'fanfic' room, too! *snerk*

I'm afraid I don't have the last word on anything, particularly Methos. :) I do think it's a valid question. Yes, Methos thought Duncan was too important to lose, but he also knew that when Duncan was fighting well, there weren't too many fighters he couldn't beat, including Keane. So, why did he shot Duncan and take on the fight himself?

IMO, he must've thought that Duncan (as Amanda argued) just might be looking for an excuse to lose. It seems clear that for a long time Duncan believed strongly in retribution and penance for past bad deeds, which was what (in part) drove his inability to fathom how Methos could just walk away from what he had done without evident guilt or any obvious attempt to redeem himself, even in his own mind.

I think FUOT is a seminal episode in that it shows that both Methos and Amanda *misread* Duncan's feelings and motivations. They thought he might, either consciously or subconsciously, deliberately lose. But ultimately Duncan's feelings were more complicated than that. In part, those motivational subtleties were generated by his experience with Methos and the Horsemen and Methos demand that Duncan accept his past - not forgive it, because it wasn't Duncan's to forgive.

We see Duncan change over time, and this episode is a clear demonstration of that transition in progress. Yes, Duncan felt guilt and remorse, both for what had happened after Culloden, and even moreso for Sean's death. But he also knew he had a choice - he could live with it, learn from it, and use it to strengthen his own inner sense of self; or he could give up and let himself be overwhelmed by his own past. He chose to live as best he could, to fight as best he could, and to (when he could) let others live as well, and let that be the legacy of Culloden and of Sean Burns.

Methos, for his part, intervened because he wanted to give Duncan more time and opportunity to grow up, not realizing that Duncan had grown up far more than he had expected. Duncan was really, really (justifiably) pissed off at Methos for interference because Duncan truly didn't want Keane to die, and if Methos had killed him, Duncan would have felt totally responsible for another needless death, only adding to the problem.

Sheesh. Now I've said too much. Sorry for rambling and blathering on and on, but FUOT is one of my very favorite episodes because of all the fascinating character issues.

This is all JMO, of course. Other interpretations are equally valid.

Page 1 of 3 << [1] [2] [3] >>

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

Profile

ithildin

A More Permanent Hell

August 2018

S	M	T	W	T	F	S
			1	2	3	4
5	6	7	8	9	10	11
12	13	14	15	16	17	18
19	20	21	22	23	24	25
26	27	28	29	30	31

Page Summary

Style Credit

Base style: Abstractia by chiming
Theme: Loveless by nornoriel

Expand Cut Tags

No cut tags

Page generated Jan. 24th, 2026 07:11 pm

A More Permanent Hell

The Elves have left us, and we have not mourned to see them go.

'Forgive Us Our Trespasses'

'Forgive Us Our Trespasses'

no subject

Why?

Re: Why?

Re: Why?

Re: Why?

no subject

no subject

Re: Why?

Re: Why?

The Boxer Shorts

Re: Why?

Re: Why?

Re: Why?

Re: Why?

Re: Why?

Re: Why?

Re: Why?

no subject

Re: Why?

Re: The Boxer Shorts

no subject

no subject

Re: The Boxer Shorts

no subject

Re: Why?

Profile

August 2018

Most Popular Tags

Page Summary

Style Credit

Expand Cut Tags