'Forgive Us Our Trespasses'

[ithildin]

Welcome to the fifteenth installment of Methos Episode Discussion. You can find the last one, for CaH & R6:8 here. All prior episode discussion links can be found over on the sidebar.

Forgive Us Our Trespasses, Air Date: May 1997

After the Scottish massacre at the Battle of Culloden in 1746, Duncan MacLeod was a man possessed, obsessed, with killing the English bastards who had destroyed his people. Now Immortal Steven Keane has come to make MacLeod pay for his murderous crimes. Amanda urges MacLeod to take Keane's head and be done with it, but in his heart MacLeod knows that Keane is right -- he is a murderer -- and that Keane is judging him just like MacLeod has judged so many others. ~ recap and quotes via tv.com

Quotes below the curtain





Duncan: You should write fortune cookies.
Methos: Yeah? Maybe I should, just so long as I'm not writing your epitaph.
________________________

Methos: I just came by to watch the perfect Immortal die.
Duncan: I'm not!
Methos: Not what? Not the perfect Immortal or not gonna die?
________________________

Amanda: Duncan, you're the best man I know. You make people better, you know - people like me, people who didn't give a damn about anything in their whole lives until you came along with your big brown eyes and your boyscout rules.
________________________

Amanda: Methos. Open the door. I know you're there. Methos! Methos, it's Amanda!
Methos: Do you want to knock a bit louder? I don't think they heard you in Philadelphia!
________________________

Methos: (to Duncan) You wanted to kill; you killed them. You know, Keane is just like you; he wants to divide the world up into good and bad. Well, it's not that simple. We are all both, good and evil. We have rage and compassion. We have love and hate. Murder and forgiveness. Why don't you try forgiving yourself for once.
________________________

Duncan It's Tuesday. He doesn't take heads on Tuesdays.






Next up will be The Modern Prometheus. Look for it next week.

Comments

[mischief5.livejournal.com]

One of the most interesting facets of this episodes is that Duncan was essentially the "bad guy". He had hunted down other Immortals for what evils they had done and now it was his turn to be hunted for his wrongs.

The other side of the story is that this is the first time we see Methos post-Bordeaux and the Horsemen. His words to Duncan: ("You wanted to kill; you killed them. You know, Keane is just like you; he wants to divide the world up into good and bad. Well, it's not that simple. We are all both, good and evil. We have rage and compassion. We have love and hate. Murder and forgiveness. Why don't you try forgiving yourself for once.") are as close to an *honest* explanation of his time with Kronos and company as he ever gets.

And it's not an apology. Methos doesn't apologize. I think that's a major flaw in fanfic when a writer has Methos begging Duncan for a chance to rationalize what he did with the Horsemen or offer an abject apology. That's just not Methos. He knows what he did and he lives with it. That's the point he's trying to make with Duncan in this scene. For whatever reasons, at that given time, you made a choice. Live with it and move on. Methos may feel regret but never guilt. It's a subtle difference but it's there.

Why?

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

I'm really looking forward to this discussion. I'm hoping it will help me mentally iron out my conflicted feelings. I'm working on a story that's set during this ep, and I've been doing lots of mental wrestling.

And it's not an apology. Methos doesn't apologize. I think that's a major flaw in fanfic when a writer has Methos begging Duncan for a chance to rationalize what he did with the Horsemen or offer an abject apology. That's just not Methos. He knows what he did and he lives with it. That's the point he's trying to make with Duncan in this scene. For whatever reasons, at that given time, you made a choice. Live with it and move on. Methos may feel regret but never guilt. It's a subtle difference but it's there.

I agree, and yet, I keep coming back to why does Methos get in the middle of it? Duncan has treated him like crap, yet he actually gets in the middle of it, shoots Duncan and fights Keane. Methos! I could see him going to talk to Duncan, but actually deciding to fight Keane himself? Why? And that's the crux of my mental wrestling :) My current feelings? That he felt he owed Duncan because Duncan asked for his life when Cassandra was going to lop his head off with Silas's axe. That's about all I can come up with. So I'm really interested in what other thoughts might be.

I may be misremembering, but I think on the extra DVD bits, Peter sorts of asks the same thing, why is Methos getting in the middle of this? I think it's this episode, at least.

Re: Why?

[mischief5.livejournal.com]

Why is Methos in the middle of this? I can think of three reasons:

1. "You are too important to lose!!"
2. Amanda. I think Methos genuinely cares about her, even though he sometimes sees her as a pest, and he knows that she has Mac's best interests at heart. So he lets her talk him into "helping" Duncan.
3. Methos has a sly, subterranean mean streak. This is his chance to obliquely rub Mac's nose in Methos' role with the Horsemen. "I'm here to watch the Perfect Immortal die." That's Methos at his bitchy best.

And there could be other reasons, such as just an excuse or a need to reconnect with Mac in some way after Bordeaux. You just never know for sure with Methos. Trying to pin him down is like trying to herd cats. ;)

Re: Why?

[unovis-lj.livejournal.com]

It doesn't seem that odd to me. From Methos's point of view, as usual, Duncan's behaving rashly. Based on his code of honor, he's about to do something Methos and Amanda think is stupid, and Methos steps in almost from exasperation. He can't talk Duncan out of the fight, he can't talk Keane out of the fight. Possibly he's aware of Keane's level of skill and Keane's own idea of a fair fight -- he uses an unexpected feint and pulls a second weapon to kill him, which Keane complained about. If Duncan hadn't interrupted, taking Keane's head would have been a sharp practical application of Methos's advice and quite unapologetic, almost hostile. Screw you, you pain in the ass. I saved you, anyway.

I don't see Duncan treating Methos badly. He's slowly getting over his disillusionment and anger. He doesn't like the kind of advice Methos gives, repeatedly, and prefers to solve the problem according to his own lights. They're both pissed off at each other but keeping the friendship alive.

[pat-t.livejournal.com]

Exactly! He asks Duncan: Can you accept it? He doesn't want forgiveness. It's not Duncan's to give anyway. He wants acceptance that that is what and who he was, he isn't anymore and it's time to move on.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

Exactly!

[enchantersnight.livejournal.com]

Not sure whether to be embarrassed to be the first to mention Methos in his boxer shorts!

*blush*

OK onto episode, I liked this one *and not just for the near naked PW* I did wonder why Methos went to all the trouble of fighting Keane but loved him shooting Duncan in the back that was so Methos! and this was great.

Methos: I just came by to watch the perfect Immortal die.
Duncan: I'm not!
Methos: Not what? Not the perfect Immortal or not gonna die?

I suppose I agree that maybe he was doing Amanda a favour and/or as a thank you to Duncan for sparing his life from Cassandra.

I thought it may have been a bit mean of them at the end though snuggling down together and poor Methos wandering back to his apartment alone

(Oh that sounds like I wanted him to join in!) not what I was thinking though :)

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

Not sure whether to be embarrassed to be the first to mention Methos in his boxer shorts!

Welll, that's one of the first things that comes to my mind! That, and from the blooper reel: "Then we'll have our own show!" He says that when Amanda says "He could die".

OK onto episode, I liked this one *and not just for the near naked PW* I did wonder why Methos went to all the trouble of fighting Keane but loved him shooting Duncan in the back that was so Methos! and this was great.

Reasons aside, him shooting Duncan, and the "you're such a pain in the ass" is one of my favourite scenes in HL ever.

I thought it may have been a bit mean of them at the end though snuggling down together and poor Methos wandering back to his apartment alone

(Oh that sounds like I wanted him to join in!) not what I was thinking though :)

Hah!! Sure you weren't [weg]

The Boxer Shorts

[mischief5.livejournal.com]

I love the boxer shorts. Everyone loves the boxer shorts. Now go back and watch that scene again and try to ignore the boxer shorts!!

Watch how Methos moves. One moment he's sound asleep then he feels the buzz. In less than a second, he's up, across the room with his sword in hand and on guard. I tried to freeze frame it to get screen caps as he went from bed to wall but he moved so fast it was just a blur!!

I keep saying this but no one takes me seriously. Everyone falls for sweet, shy Adam Pierson all hunched over in his raincoat. Don't let him fool you! Don't confuse Adam Pierson with Methos. Adam Pierson is just a mask. (I would love it if some vidder did one of Methos/Adam to Billy Joel's "The Stranger".) The real Methos is a stone cold bastard. Don't ever forget it and don't ever turn your back on him.

Sweet Brigid, I adore him... :)

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

Anyone have an idea of how much time passed between the end of Rev 6:8 and the beginning of this episode?

[mischief5.livejournal.com]

Do you want actual time, Highlander time or theoretical time?

Actual time: given a 7 day shooting schedule with weekends (supposedly) off: about 5 or 6 weeks, give a few days.

Highlander time: there were four episodes between Rev 6:8 and FUOT but one was "A Highlander Fable: The Stone of Scone", so three weeks.

Theoretical time: As much as you like, within reason. Rev 6:8 looks like late Fall in Bordeaux; FOUT looks like Paris in winter.

Does that sound about right?

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I meant time for the characters, so theoretical time. Mentally, I think I assumed at least two months had gone by, don't know why :)

[cyberducks.livejournal.com]

This is the eppie that broke my tape because I kept ff and rewinding it to the most important moment in the episode - Methos in his underwear - that's when I realized PW was hiding quite the body under those baggy sweaters - which was truly a revelation! I also realized I wanted Methos/Amanda sex.

I have no intellectual insights to add (having a bad day, and only my reptile brain seems to function...)

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

:( [sending virtual Methos your way to brighten your day]

[mischief5.livejournal.com]

Aww, Ducky. I'm so sorry. Come and tell Mama Mischief all about it and then I'll go kill the f***er for you...

[ekaterinn.livejournal.com]

Amen on the Methos/Amanda sex. Mmm, yummy.

[jinxed-wood.livejournal.com]

I've actually read Methos/Amanda sex but I can't remember the author...it was damned hot too!

[eveningblue.livejournal.com]

Every time I watch this episode, something different sticks with me.

Right now, I have two favorite moments:

1) The scene where Methos shoots Duncan. "You are *such* a pain in the ass."

2) The deleted takes on the dvd in which Methos and Amanda cannot stop laughing. A: "He could die!" M: "Then maybe we'll get our own series!"

[ekaterinn.livejournal.com]

I would have loved to have seen Methos in HL:The Raven. *g*

I love that little shake of the head when Methos shoots Duncan - mirrored with the annoyance in his posture when Duncan retrieves and stops the fight.

[multimedea.livejournal.com]

I love that little shake of the head when Methos shoots Duncan - mirrored with the annoyance in his posture when Duncan retrieves and stops the fight.

Heh! Me too. It's like he's saying, "I'm doing this all for you, dumbass. So lay there like a good little corpse and let Daddy Methos take care of everything. And then we'll go get ice cream."

[ekaterinn.livejournal.com]

What realy struck me about the episode is the way Methos and Duncan seem to have come to an uneasy peace with each other. Neither of them mentions Bordeaux, and though it underlies all their arguments and actions, they don't let it distract them from doing what they want. Methos falls back into his old pattern of trying to save the Highlander from himself, and Duncan is just as insistant on doing what he feels is best.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

That one little head shake spoke volumes!

Pimp Suit

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

It would be remiss of me not to mention my other favourite piece of orange clothing: Stephen Keane's Orange Alien Pimp Suit of Doom! The unnatural offsrping of Methos' Orange Alien Cords of Doom. The red fog shoulda been orange!

Trivia

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

In the DVD extras, Gillian said that Michael Praed was supposed to have played the part of Keane. How cool would that have been?

Re: Trivia

[pat-t.livejournal.com]

oh yeah, they were very disappointed with the actor who played Keane. The idea was to have someone as handsome, as charismatic and as good as Duncan facing our Duncan who is suddenly seen as the bad guy in the equation from the other guy's perspective. And it didn't work with this actor.

Also, a quick mention - F. Braun brought this up in Sydney and I had never thought about it before. We know Methos has a gun. He uses it to shoot Duncan without any hesitancy. But he doesn't use it against Keane. Instead he fights Keane fairly - (in his terms - I guess a second blade is fair, but a gun isn't). But he only fights him one on one with blades. He doesn't shoot Keane.