'Finale'

[ithildin]

Welcome to our second installment of Methos Episode discussion! You can find the first one, for 'Methos' here.

Finale Parts One & Two, Air Date: May 1995

Amanda accidentally helps Kalas escape from prison by trying to do MacLeod a favor and kill Kalas for him. After an attempt on Maurice's life thwarted by MacLeod, Kalas kidnaps Amanda to use as bait against MacLeod, but Amanda manages to escape.

Meanwhile, Christine Salzer, the widow of a Watcher killed by Kalas (in "Methos") decides to get her revenge on Immortals and Watchers alike by exposing their secret to the media. Dawson and Methos team up to try and talk Christine out of it, but she's determined to take a computer disk with the identities of all known Immortals and Watchers on it to a newspaper publisher. Dawson, desperate, tries to kill her outside the newspaper building, but is stopped by MacLeod and Methos. Christine enters the building and the Immortals and the Watchers know their lives are about to change forever.

As Christine tells her tale to the newspaper publisher, MacLeod and Amanda, knowing their world is about to end, finally admit they love each other. Kalas kills Christine and the publisher and steals the computer disk before they have a chance to spread the story. Kalas offers MacLeod a deal -- MacLeod offers up his head or the contents of the disk are made public. Dawson and the Watchers attempt to find Kalas, but this only results in more dead Watchers.

Methos tries to talk MacLeod out of it, but MacLeod agrees to fight Kalas on top of the Eiffel Tower. Kalas is defeated and the resulting Quickening, amplified by the Tower, sends a power surge that disrupts every computer in the vicinity -- including Kalas'. The information on the disk is destroyed and Immortals and Watchers maintain their anonymity. ~via tv.com

Next week, we'll move on to Season Four with Chivalry and Timeless (I love Chivalry!)

A few quotes below the curtain





Joe: What were you thinking about?
Methos: I wasn't thinking, I was improvising.
Joe: By cutting yourself open? It took you five thousand years to come up with that?
Methos: What were you expecting? Einstein? Freud? Buddha? I'm sorry, Joe, I'm just a guy.
Joe: I guess next you're gonna tell me there's no Santa Claus.
_________________

Methos: "The passion of youth."
Duncan: "Boys will be boys."
Methos: And "every cloud has a silver lining."
Duncan: What d'you mean?
Methos: If you die, Amanda will be free to date.
Duncan: That's a comfort.
___________________

Methos: I was in Rome once, ninety-three AD, Coliseum, I saw Christians facing the lions. Some of them looked almost happy to die for their faith.
Duncan: Your point or we just strolling down memory lane here?
Methos: But afterwards the only ones looking happy were the lions.
Duncan: This isn't about faith.
Methos: No, it's about sacrifice. It's a hell of a thing to be a martyr, MacLeod, and that's what Kalas wants; he's pushing all your buttons.
Duncan: Well, I'm open to suggestions; enlighten me.
Methos: Maybe Amanda's right; you fight your best fight.
Duncan: What, every man for himself and to hell with the rest?
Methos: So what if the world finds out. Life is about change, civilizations rise and fall.
Duncan: This isn't about civilizations, this is about people. Amanda, Dawson, Richie. Our world is not an ant farm.

Comments

[eveningblue.livejournal.com]

There is *so much* to love about these episodes! They are just packed full of good stuff, from flashbacks to Watcher stuff to Kalas. I like the quotes you've picked out. The first one I find especially intriguing, because we see again this expectation that Methos would be this brilliant guy because he has lived so long, but really all he has learned how to do is survive. (It's similar to the scene in "Methos" with him and Mac walking along the river, where Mac asks him what he makes of all of it, and he shurgs.)

It's possible that he's being disingenuous, but it's also possible that it's a comment on what Immortals *lack*. They lack the creeping knowledge of age, and of death, and the awareness that they only have a limited amount of time to do what they're going to do. They also have to worry about guys with swords coming round to hack their heads off. So they can't achieve greatness (like Freud or Einstein), they can only work on survival skills. Unless they accept possible death, but it's obvious that Methos values survival above all else.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

I love that! I hadn't thought of it from that angle before, but it really does make a great deal of sense.

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

So they can't achieve greatness (like Freud or Einstein), they can only work on survival skills.

They can work on things besides survival skills. One of things I like in Modern Prometheus is the little bit we get of how Methos got into being a doctor. He is very well educated. His intelligence and ability to learn aren't limited by being Immortal. I think the point to "I'm just guy," isn't that he isn't human, but that he's still human, not more or less.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

True, but then is that 'greatness' or is that just a sensible use of your time? I mean, what's the norm? Do most immies just drift through life, or do most of them have a career or two or three? Sorry, I wonder about such niggly little bits of crud :)

[eveningblue.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think there's a difference between learning to be a doctor, and being Einstein.

"It's good to keep busy," Methos says in "Chivalry," and he has obviously kept busy! But he can't become *great*, at least in part because Immortals cannot really afford to have high profiles. But also because of the other stuff I said.

I *love* the fact that Methos and Mac have both spent so much of their long long lives learning. I think this is what I'd do if I were Immortal--get a billion doctoral degrees. But again, you can't really become a well-known academic (ha ha oxymoron right there) because it would call attention to your non-aging self.

It must be tiring, having to hide all the time.

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

Byron was the Byron, and simply because he's the only historical character in the course of the series that they happened to "out" doesn't mean he was an exception that proved the norm. Nothing keeps Highlander Immortals from being great.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

I'd forgotten about Byron, to tell you the truth. Highlander, as far as famous folk go, is something of an alternate history/universe. Don't even get me started on Flora McDonald! :)

You all are giving me so much to think about!

[eveningblue.livejournal.com]

But remember the chick in "Timeless," who felt she lost her gift when she became Immortal?

Byron is a good counter-argument, though.

[sophiedb.livejournal.com]

One thing that never seemed right about Byron (jumping ahead) is that he should have been a foundling, and yet was born into this wealthy aristocratic family. Ok so he might have been adopted, but upper class families weren't exactly known for taking in orphans of dubious parentage.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

I can only imagine how many books I'd have....

[eveningblue.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes! Gobs and gobs of books!

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

I mean, what's the norm? Do most immies just drift through life, or do most of them have a career or two or three?

Einstein and Freud weren't "norms," if Immortals are human the "norm" for Immortals shouldn't be "greatness." Most of the Immortals on the show have careers, whether their Kimmies working at illegal enterprises or psychiatrists like Sean Burns, doctors like Methos or antique store operators like Duncan. The Game isn't the whole of an Immortal's life, and I'm sure they have "Greats," even if Byron is the only historical person they outed on the show.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

I posted about that somewhat a few weeks back: is Duncan the norm, always in challanges, or are people like Robert and Gina more the usual for Immortals? It would be a pretty boring show if all we saw were immies working in their garden or cooking dinner, so Duncan's life is probably the extreme. Methos himself said he's been out of circulation for 200 odd years (if he were relling the truth, of course)

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I wasn't saying the norm is greatness, I just jumped a little ahead of my thoughts and changed the subject inadvertantly. :) Pesky work is interfering with my commenting! And boy, will I be glad when this day is over!

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

is Duncan the norm, always in challenges, or are people like Robert and Gina more the usual for Immortals?

I don't think Duncan is the norm. I think he's the one anchoring a weekly TV show. :D Robert and Gina are good examples. If you set aside the intrusion of the Kimmie of the week into the lives of other Immortals there are other examples of Immortals that were apparently living normal happy lives. Rebecca was happily married to her mortal. Ceirdwyn not only was happily married to her mortal husband, but his death wasn't related to the Game. It was just a random act of violence.

[(Anonymous)]

"they can't achieve greatness"

I think Joe had a line in Timeless (sorry I am bad with episode names), where he said, "Perhaps when the flame burns shorter, it burns brighter", (or some such thing).

I think he was correct. Something in being an immortal makes you unable to obtain Greatness. Whether that is due to the "lack of the creeping knowledge of age" or the need to remain in secret, it does make an impact.

I first noticed this in an earlier season. The story line about the photographer Duncan dated. The subplot had an Immortal name Gregor who was talented but self-destructive, because he could not feel the import of death, or fear. The theme came up again, with Brian Cullen and his spiral down. He could not be the "greatest" swordsman because it brought challenges from mortal and immortal alike.

Byron too, is an example. While undoubtedly he was a "great" poet, when we meet him in the first flashback, he is already immortal, and already in his self-destructive free fall. Had he already lost the edge that being truly human, with all its frailty's, gives in to path greatness?

[eveningblue.livejournal.com]

Yes, Gregor is a good example, and so is Brian Cullen. And what you say about Byron is true, too. Something happened to all three that made them lose sight of the value of life.

There are lots of famous quotes about death giving meaning to life. I think it's true.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

I'm really loving this discussion! So thank you :)

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

Something happened to all three that made them lose sight of the value of life.

For Claudia it was becoming Immortal, and we don't know if she lived long enough as an Immortal to develop the sense that she could be armed and still near death. For Gregor and Byron they were burnt out. However they weren't both hopelessly burnt out. Byron gave up, and Duncan took his head. Gregor recovered his sense of his own mortality when he provoked Duncan, and lived. Brian Cullen was hyper aware of his own mortality, getting his "courage" from drugs and alcohol. Each of those is a different case.

There are lots of famous quotes about death giving meaning to life.

The first Rule of the Game is "In the end there can be only one." An Immortal who lacks a sense of their own mortality is fucked up, and even being fucked up didn't keep Byron from being a famous poet.

[(Anonymous)]

"Each of those is a different case."

I have to disagree. The issue is not a case of "lacks a sense of their own mortality", but rather that they have some control over that mortality. In fact, if they can fight, hide, run or stay on Holy ground, they can live forever. Mortals cannot. Methos touches on this in the episode on Amanda's crystal. He comments that no matter how hard mortals prepare, how hard they fight, they have no chance against death. They CANNOT win, they will always lose. For Mortals - DEATH HAS DOMINION. For an Immortal, that is not necessarily true. I think it is that knowledge, that you cannot win, that makes Mortals great, but prevents Immortals from being so.

Roberta

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

In fact, if they can fight, hide, run or stay on Holy ground, they can live forever.

No, they can't live forever, and Methos' words about Alexa in the episode Methuselah's Gift are true for Immortals, or for every Immortal except the Prize winner. For every other Immortal someone will be better or luckier. Darius lost his head on Holy Ground, and while it wasn't to an Immortal he was just as dead. And the Kimmie that wanted Amanda's piece of the Methuselah's stone in Legacy wanted the stone because it would make him invulnerable. It's appeal for Immortals is the same as it is for humans, getting the ability to live forever. Brian Cullen was obsessed with the fact that sooner or later he would lose, and other Immortals know it whether or not they talk about it the way Methos talked about Alexa. Hell, Methos may have been obsessed with Alexa's mortality in Methuselah's Gift, but he's aware of his mortality.

I think it is that knowledge, that you cannot win, that makes Mortals great, but prevents Immortals from being so.

Immortals know that "Only One" can win, and unlike human beings who can dream of dying peacefully in their sleep they know their death will be a violent one. They only die when something severs their head from their body. If it's a "looming death" that makes greatness then Immortals have both a looming death, and a violent one. Death is a part of life, even for astronomical stars like the sun. Methos maybe 5,000 years old, but he's the oldest living Immortal. Richie didn't make average human life expectancy, and he wasn't the only Immortal like that on the show. I don't know what "average life expectancy" is for an Immortal, but they don't live forever. And, even if they did, death doesn't particularly make one great.

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

think Joe had a line in Timeless

*Nods.* That's from Timeless.

I think he was correct.

I don't. When Methos and Duncan are arguing about Byron's being a "fucked up" artist, Duncan rattles of some great ones pointing out they were great without being fucked up. Being able to cite "fucked up" Immortals doesn't rule out the existence of healthy ones. Healthy ones don't make the drama the fucked up ones do. Not only that but the three examples, Claudia, Gregor, and Byron, are all artists, even Brian Cullen could be called an artist not a scientist. Of course he doesn't fit in the group.

Brian Cullen isn't an example of lacking greatness because he lacks his mortality. His problem was that he knew it wasn't just the "shorter burning" candles who don't live forever. Brian's problem wasn't that he couldn't be "the best." His problem was he knew that being the best made him the target for every other swordsman looking for the power and-or a reputation taking the head of "the best" would give. If anything Brian is an example of how Immortals can be very aware of their own mortality. Methos himself is of course another example of an Immortal aware that they don't necessarily live forever.

Something in being an immortal makes you unable to obtain Greatness. Whether that is due to the "lack of the creeping knowledge of age" or the need to remain in secret, it does make an impact.

To say they can't be great because they have to remain secret is to define Greatness as a matter of fame rather than actual talent. I don't know if the show had a particular reason for avoiding "outing" more than a couple of famous historical figures, but I don't think they're failure to out more means there weren't more. Of course saying they can't show their Greatness is a backward acknowledgment of their being able to be great. To say they can't be great because they have no sense of their own mortality is to ignore the Immortals that do have a sense of their own mortality, and undermine the contention that they have to protect themselves by remaining in hiding.

[(Anonymous)]

"To say they can't be great because they have no sense of their own mortality is to ignore the Immortals that do have a sense of their own mortality, and undermine the contention that they have to protect themselves by remaining in hiding."

We will have to disagree on this topic. It is not a sense of mortality that makes one great, but the inability to beat it. As I said in earlier reply, Immortals have a fighting chance against death. They can run, hide, stay on Holy ground, etc. Mortals do not have that same chance. No matter what a mortal does, death WILL always win. That is not true for an Immortal. Knowing someone MAY kill you if you do not train, fight, run or hide, is not the same thing as knowing that no matter how hard you train, fight or run or hide, you WILL die.

And when survival becomes your primary objective all else is diminished and thus, true Greatness cannot be achieved. I think knowing you WILL die makes mortals "free" to strive for another type of immortality that comes from achieving Greatness.

Roberta

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

Is I said in earlier reply, Immortals have a fighting chance against death.

The only Immortal who will even have the possibility of living forever is the Prize winner. They will be the only one. Death, violent death is an inevitability for most Immortals.

Knowing someone MAY kill you if you do not train, fight, run or hide, is not the same thing as knowing that no matter how hard you train, fight or run or hide, you WILL die.

Someone WILL kill you whether or not you do everything you can to avoid it.

And when survival becomes your primary objective all else is diminished and thus, true Greatness cannot be achieved.

Even for Methos, who may or may not have made survival his primary objective, it's been a subject of debate, it isn't his only occupation.

I think knowing you WILL die makes mortals "free" to strive for another type of immortality that comes from achieving Greatness.

I don't believe death is "freeing," but if it is Immortals are free. They have the ability to "strive for Greatness" in ways other than winning the Prize. They aren't all going to live forever.

[(Anonymous)]

"They aren't all going to live forever."

No, but they a have chance. And maybe that alone is the difference. The nature of Humankind, both mortal and immortal is to look forward. An immortal can strive to be the last. He can train hard, fight hard, prepare, do everything in his power to win, today, tomorrow and ultimately the price. He has that HOPE.

Mortals do not. There is no hope that they can overcome death. Only that you can delay it, or "cheat" it in other ways, though Greatness. HOPE, and its nature between the two groups is what differentiates immortal from mortal, and from true greatness.

Hope springs eternal! But, when one has the possibility of Eternity, hope becomes something less.

Roberta