ithildin | 'Finale'

Welcome to our second installment of Methos Episode discussion! You can find the first one, for 'Methos' here.

Finale Parts One & Two, Air Date: May 1995

Amanda accidentally helps Kalas escape from prison by trying to do MacLeod a favor and kill Kalas for him. After an attempt on Maurice's life thwarted by MacLeod, Kalas kidnaps Amanda to use as bait against MacLeod, but Amanda manages to escape.

Meanwhile, Christine Salzer, the widow of a Watcher killed by Kalas (in "Methos") decides to get her revenge on Immortals and Watchers alike by exposing their secret to the media. Dawson and Methos team up to try and talk Christine out of it, but she's determined to take a computer disk with the identities of all known Immortals and Watchers on it to a newspaper publisher. Dawson, desperate, tries to kill her outside the newspaper building, but is stopped by MacLeod and Methos. Christine enters the building and the Immortals and the Watchers know their lives are about to change forever.

As Christine tells her tale to the newspaper publisher, MacLeod and Amanda, knowing their world is about to end, finally admit they love each other. Kalas kills Christine and the publisher and steals the computer disk before they have a chance to spread the story. Kalas offers MacLeod a deal -- MacLeod offers up his head or the contents of the disk are made public. Dawson and the Watchers attempt to find Kalas, but this only results in more dead Watchers.

Methos tries to talk MacLeod out of it, but MacLeod agrees to fight Kalas on top of the Eiffel Tower. Kalas is defeated and the resulting Quickening, amplified by the Tower, sends a power surge that disrupts every computer in the vicinity -- including Kalas'. The information on the disk is destroyed and Immortals and Watchers maintain their anonymity. ~via tv.com

Next week, we'll move on to Season Four with Chivalry and Timeless (I love Chivalry!)

A few quotes below the curtain

Joe: What were you thinking about?
Methos: I wasn't thinking, I was improvising.
Joe: By cutting yourself open? It took you five thousand years to come up with that?
Methos: What were you expecting? Einstein? Freud? Buddha? I'm sorry, Joe, I'm just a guy.
Joe: I guess next you're gonna tell me there's no Santa Claus.
_________________

Methos: "The passion of youth."
Duncan: "Boys will be boys."
Methos: And "every cloud has a silver lining."
Duncan: What d'you mean?
Methos: If you die, Amanda will be free to date.
Duncan: That's a comfort.
___________________

Methos: I was in Rome once, ninety-three AD, Coliseum, I saw Christians facing the lions. Some of them looked almost happy to die for their faith.
Duncan: Your point or we just strolling down memory lane here?
Methos: But afterwards the only ones looking happy were the lions.
Duncan: This isn't about faith.
Methos: No, it's about sacrifice. It's a hell of a thing to be a martyr, MacLeod, and that's what Kalas wants; he's pushing all your buttons.
Duncan: Well, I'm open to suggestions; enlighten me.
Methos: Maybe Amanda's right; you fight your best fight.
Duncan: What, every man for himself and to hell with the rest?
Methos: So what if the world finds out. Life is about change, civilizations rise and fall.
Duncan: This isn't about civilizations, this is about people. Amanda, Dawson, Richie. Our world is not an ant farm.

Current Mood: easily amused

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"they can't achieve greatness"

I think Joe had a line in Timeless (sorry I am bad with episode names), where he said, "Perhaps when the flame burns shorter, it burns brighter", (or some such thing).

I think he was correct. Something in being an immortal makes you unable to obtain Greatness. Whether that is due to the "lack of the creeping knowledge of age" or the need to remain in secret, it does make an impact.

I first noticed this in an earlier season. The story line about the photographer Duncan dated. The subplot had an Immortal name Gregor who was talented but self-destructive, because he could not feel the import of death, or fear. The theme came up again, with Brian Cullen and his spiral down. He could not be the "greatest" swordsman because it brought challenges from mortal and immortal alike.

Byron too, is an example. While undoubtedly he was a "great" poet, when we meet him in the first flashback, he is already immortal, and already in his self-destructive free fall. Had he already lost the edge that being truly human, with all its frailty's, gives in to path greatness?

Yes, Gregor is a good example, and so is Brian Cullen. And what you say about Byron is true, too. Something happened to all three that made them lose sight of the value of life.

There are lots of famous quotes about death giving meaning to life. I think it's true.

I'm really loving this discussion! So thank you :)

Something happened to all three that made them lose sight of the value of life.

For Claudia it was becoming Immortal, and we don't know if she lived long enough as an Immortal to develop the sense that she could be armed and still near death. For Gregor and Byron they were burnt out. However they weren't both hopelessly burnt out. Byron gave up, and Duncan took his head. Gregor recovered his sense of his own mortality when he provoked Duncan, and lived. Brian Cullen was hyper aware of his own mortality, getting his "courage" from drugs and alcohol. Each of those is a different case.

There are lots of famous quotes about death giving meaning to life.

The first Rule of the Game is "In the end there can be only one." An Immortal who lacks a sense of their own mortality is fucked up, and even being fucked up didn't keep Byron from being a famous poet.

"Each of those is a different case."

I have to disagree. The issue is not a case of "lacks a sense of their own mortality", but rather that they have some control over that mortality. In fact, if they can fight, hide, run or stay on Holy ground, they can live forever. Mortals cannot. Methos touches on this in the episode on Amanda's crystal. He comments that no matter how hard mortals prepare, how hard they fight, they have no chance against death. They CANNOT win, they will always lose. For Mortals - DEATH HAS DOMINION. For an Immortal, that is not necessarily true. I think it is that knowledge, that you cannot win, that makes Mortals great, but prevents Immortals from being so.

Roberta

In fact, if they can fight, hide, run or stay on Holy ground, they can live forever.

No, they can't live forever, and Methos' words about Alexa in the episode Methuselah's Gift are true for Immortals, or for every Immortal except the Prize winner. For every other Immortal someone will be better or luckier. Darius lost his head on Holy Ground, and while it wasn't to an Immortal he was just as dead. And the Kimmie that wanted Amanda's piece of the Methuselah's stone in Legacy wanted the stone because it would make him invulnerable. It's appeal for Immortals is the same as it is for humans, getting the ability to live forever. Brian Cullen was obsessed with the fact that sooner or later he would lose, and other Immortals know it whether or not they talk about it the way Methos talked about Alexa. Hell, Methos may have been obsessed with Alexa's mortality in Methuselah's Gift, but he's aware of his mortality.

I think it is that knowledge, that you cannot win, that makes Mortals great, but prevents Immortals from being so.

Immortals know that "Only One" can win, and unlike human beings who can dream of dying peacefully in their sleep they know their death will be a violent one. They only die when something severs their head from their body. If it's a "looming death" that makes greatness then Immortals have both a looming death, and a violent one. Death is a part of life, even for astronomical stars like the sun. Methos maybe 5,000 years old, but he's the oldest living Immortal. Richie didn't make average human life expectancy, and he wasn't the only Immortal like that on the show. I don't know what "average life expectancy" is for an Immortal, but they don't live forever. And, even if they did, death doesn't particularly make one great.

Well, I guess we can agree to disagree. I don't really buy into the whole "there can be only one" mythology, but that's just me.

I don't really buy into the whole "there can be only one" mythology, but that's just me.

"There can be only one," is canon, canon they had to violate to do any spin offs from the original movie. Connor was the Prize winner in the original movie. Whether they move even farther away from original canon than they already have with their various spin offs in The Source, "There can be only one," will still be the original canon. If you choose to ignore the First Rule because they've violated it, and may violate it further that's your choice. I chose to ignore the later spin offs. While in one of the short stories in Evening at Joe's an Immortal that tries to kill on Holly Ground promptly vanishes, in Endgame the Kimmie kills on Holy Ground without any ill effect. Everyone, even the Immortals apparently, are free to choose what they believe. ;)

I don't choose to ignore it because of canon, I choose to ignore it because it doesn't make any sense, and we don't know where it comes from. It sounds like something a bunch of Immortals made up a long time ago to justify killing each other.

I only believe the "rules" I see evidence of. I see that in order to kill an Immortal, you need to cut off his head. I see that when an Immortal dies, the Immortal who killed him gets his quickening.

Anything else, including the Gathering, "there can be only one," etc. that I don't see evidence of might very well be made-up mythology, as far as I'm concerned.

I choose to ignore it because it doesn't make any sense, and we don't know where it comes from.

In the "most people pretend it doesn't exist" version of Highlander 2 they answered where Immortals and the Game come from with Zeist. From what I saw at the Highlander convention in Leeds The Source is going to offer a different explanation of where Immortals and the Game comes from. Even without the explanation in the "bad" Highlander 2, or whatever they're up to in The Source there's a partial explanation of why "Only One" in the Prize itself. The Prize is the accumulation of every Immortals Quickening, all of that power. "There can be only one," is a tenant at least lip service has been paid to in every version of Highlander, except maybe the cartoon series, I forget how it worked, and it's there because it's a fundamental part of their existence however it gets explained.

I only believe the "rules" I see evidence of.

Connor was "The Only One" in the original Highlander movie. They may have made it an alternate timeline, with the series Connor and the Kurgan weren't the last two Immortals, but the Rules have already been played out to their conclusion.

think Joe had a line in Timeless

*Nods.* That's from Timeless.

I think he was correct.

I don't. When Methos and Duncan are arguing about Byron's being a "fucked up" artist, Duncan rattles of some great ones pointing out they were great without being fucked up. Being able to cite "fucked up" Immortals doesn't rule out the existence of healthy ones. Healthy ones don't make the drama the fucked up ones do. Not only that but the three examples, Claudia, Gregor, and Byron, are all artists, even Brian Cullen could be called an artist not a scientist. Of course he doesn't fit in the group.

Brian Cullen isn't an example of lacking greatness because he lacks his mortality. His problem was that he knew it wasn't just the "shorter burning" candles who don't live forever. Brian's problem wasn't that he couldn't be "the best." His problem was he knew that being the best made him the target for every other swordsman looking for the power and-or a reputation taking the head of "the best" would give. If anything Brian is an example of how Immortals can be very aware of their own mortality. Methos himself is of course another example of an Immortal aware that they don't necessarily live forever.

Something in being an immortal makes you unable to obtain Greatness. Whether that is due to the "lack of the creeping knowledge of age" or the need to remain in secret, it does make an impact.

To say they can't be great because they have to remain secret is to define Greatness as a matter of fame rather than actual talent. I don't know if the show had a particular reason for avoiding "outing" more than a couple of famous historical figures, but I don't think they're failure to out more means there weren't more. Of course saying they can't show their Greatness is a backward acknowledgment of their being able to be great. To say they can't be great because they have no sense of their own mortality is to ignore the Immortals that do have a sense of their own mortality, and undermine the contention that they have to protect themselves by remaining in hiding.

"To say they can't be great because they have no sense of their own mortality is to ignore the Immortals that do have a sense of their own mortality, and undermine the contention that they have to protect themselves by remaining in hiding."

We will have to disagree on this topic. It is not a sense of mortality that makes one great, but the inability to beat it. As I said in earlier reply, Immortals have a fighting chance against death. They can run, hide, stay on Holy ground, etc. Mortals do not have that same chance. No matter what a mortal does, death WILL always win. That is not true for an Immortal. Knowing someone MAY kill you if you do not train, fight, run or hide, is not the same thing as knowing that no matter how hard you train, fight or run or hide, you WILL die.

And when survival becomes your primary objective all else is diminished and thus, true Greatness cannot be achieved. I think knowing you WILL die makes mortals "free" to strive for another type of immortality that comes from achieving Greatness.

Roberta

Is I said in earlier reply, Immortals have a fighting chance against death.

The only Immortal who will even have the possibility of living forever is the Prize winner. They will be the only one. Death, violent death is an inevitability for most Immortals.

Knowing someone MAY kill you if you do not train, fight, run or hide, is not the same thing as knowing that no matter how hard you train, fight or run or hide, you WILL die.

Someone WILL kill you whether or not you do everything you can to avoid it.

And when survival becomes your primary objective all else is diminished and thus, true Greatness cannot be achieved.

Even for Methos, who may or may not have made survival his primary objective, it's been a subject of debate, it isn't his only occupation.

I think knowing you WILL die makes mortals "free" to strive for another type of immortality that comes from achieving Greatness.

I don't believe death is "freeing," but if it is Immortals are free. They have the ability to "strive for Greatness" in ways other than winning the Prize. They aren't all going to live forever.

"They aren't all going to live forever."

No, but they a have chance. And maybe that alone is the difference. The nature of Humankind, both mortal and immortal is to look forward. An immortal can strive to be the last. He can train hard, fight hard, prepare, do everything in his power to win, today, tomorrow and ultimately the price. He has that HOPE.

Mortals do not. There is no hope that they can overcome death. Only that you can delay it, or "cheat" it in other ways, though Greatness. HOPE, and its nature between the two groups is what differentiates immortal from mortal, and from true greatness.

Hope springs eternal! But, when one has the possibility of Eternity, hope becomes something less.

Roberta

He has that HOPE. ... But, when one has the possibility of Eternity, hope becomes something less.

Either Immortals are driven by their hope of the form of Immortality the Prize gives, while facing a likelihood of dying a violent death. They only have a chance, and it's merely a chance to be the last. Or the mere possibility of eternity makes hope less to an Immortal. Either they are driven to distraction by their "hope," or it's less to them than it is for mortals. For some of them, like Brian and Byron each in their own way that hope doesn't exist at all. For others, the head hunters focused solely on winning the Game that hope is all consuming. But, for the average Immortal the chance provides a slim hope, but only a slim one, and they can hope to "cheat" death through achieving something other than the Prize.

"..and they can hope to "cheat" death through achieving something other than the Prize..."

I do not think so. Someone once said, Life will always choose Life. I believe that. So when you have the possibility of eternal life (and yes I admit is is only the possibility) something changes. The focus on preserving life become preeminent. Because that means, fighting, hiding, and keeping your secret, you lose something, some edge, that forever tempers the flame of greatness that exist in every human. And once that happens, Greatness is lost.

So for me, while intellectually I would like to think that Immortals would become great leaders, thinkers, artists, etc., I know the very nature of their being prevents it. Thus, you see the destruction of brilliant people like Byron when they become immortal. The edge that made them Great as mortals is gone and they are forever trying to get it back.

Roberta

Someone once said, Life will always choose Life.

Marcus Constantine told Duncan that's what Darius would've said when he was brooding about having taken Nefritiri's head. It isn't true of humans or Immortals, both are capable of suicidial depression ala Gregor and Byron, and self sacrifice. Not to mention of course that only the head hunters spend their every waking moment consumed with collecting that next head.

The focus on preserving life become preeminent.

No it doesn't. Most Immortals have lives, they aren't just surviving.

So for me, while intellectually I would like to think that Immortals would become great leaders, thinkers, artists, etc., I know the very nature of their being prevents it.

For me, I know that nothing in an Immortal's being prevents them from being great, and more than likely there are as many great leaders, thinkers and artists among the Immortal population as there are among the "mere mortals." Hell, Darius before he hid on Holy Ground and Grayson off of it were supposedly great leaders, military ones perhaps but great leaders none the less.

Thus, you see the destruction of brilliant people like Byron when they become immortal.

Byron's self destruction was his personal problem, not his Immortality.

" Hell, Darius before he hid on Holy Ground and Grayson off of it were supposedly great leaders, military ones perhaps but great leaders none the less."

I would disagree. They do mention that Darius "could have been one of the greatest Generals in history", not that he was one. As he was said to be about 2000 years old and yet appears to spend a large part of that on holy ground, I always believed he was young, maybe even younger then Duncan, when he took then oldest living immortals' head at the gates of Paris (not to mention in my book a great General does not behead unarmed priest). That always made me think his Greatness could have predated is immortality. His time with Grayson was merely as a marauder, much like Methos and the Horsemen, albeit leading mortals.

"Most Immortals have lives"

There is having a life and then there is living and achieving. I have a life, but I am by no means great. Nor am I merely surviving. The two are not mutually exclusive. The distinction between living and being great is altogether different.

Roberta

They do mention that Darius "could have been one of the greatest Generals in history", not that he was one.

They said he could have "ruled the world," but he turned his army back at the gates of Paris. Darius was Great, not merely a "might've been." When he settled on Holy Ground he abandoned the Greatness he'd already obtained, and his potential to be even greater.

As he was said to be about 2000 years old and yet appears to spend a large part of that on holy ground, I always believed he was young, maybe even younger then Duncan...

If he was 2,000 then he was at least as old as Duncan, and potentially older. If 2000 could mean a little younger it could also mean a little older. He was Grayson's teacher, and he turned back from Paris after he rode into Rome with Alaric. It's in the officially licenced Highlander novel Shadow of Obsession by Rebecca Neason. Grayson was pissed at Darius for abandoning the Greatness he'd achieved, and spurning reaching for his full potential.

not to mention in my book a great General does not behead unarmed priest.

Julius Caesar slaughtered plenty of priests.

That always made me think his Greatness could have predated is immortality.

He was at least 400 when he turned his army back at the gates of Paris, and possibly 6 or even 7 hundred years old.

His time with Grayson was merely as a marauder, much like Methos and the Horsemen, albeit leading mortals.

He wasn't a "marauder" he was a General. He led an army not a band.

The two are not mutually exclusive. The distinction between living and being great is altogether different.

They aren't "mutually exclusive," but they aren't "altogether different" either. Living whether you're an Immortal or a human is an achievement of its own. You've got the money for your computer and your internet access. You've achieved enough to have those things. Some human beings achieve more than others, and some Immortals achieve more than others, in the Game and in other fields of endeavor.

Like I said, we will have to agree to disagree on this topic. As for

"He wasn't a "marauder" he was a General. He led an army not a band."

I am sure we could have a lovely academic discussion on what exactly the difference is between the two.

But that would get us way off point.

Roberta

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A More Permanent Hell

The Elves have left us, and we have not mourned to see them go.

'Finale'

'Finale'

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