Marty Sue?

[ithildin]

So George Lucas based Luke on himself, and Gene Roddenberry based Wesley on himself, and those are just two are off the top of my head, and now, I discover that one of the creators of How I Met Your Mother based Ted on himself and the other creator, Marshall. Yet I never see the screams of 'MARY SUE!' that I'm sure would exist if these guys were women.

Just an observation.


Ted was originally modeled on you, and Marshall on Craig. How far have those characters evolved from that? Do you ever sit around and say, "I wouldn't do that" or "We wouldn't do that to each other"?

Ted certainly isn't me anymore. I haven't been engaged, or had a lot of the other experiences he's had. It's more the characters have become themselves .We definitely do try to ask ourselves, "Would this happen to us? Would this happen to someone we know?" for all the characters. We try to keep them personal and real, but there's more overlap now. I relate to Marshall as much as I do to Ted.


Full text here, but it is spoilerish for the last ep of the season.

Comments

[fractured-sun.livejournal.com]

Ah see it's not so much whether they are based on a real person but whether they come out as a well rounded 3 dimensional character

I have an almost pathological hatred of badly portrayed female characters (whether in fandom or in canon). It's one of the things I hate about gundam wing (my main anime fandom). Some of the main female characters are basically just there to look pretty and take up space (though bizarrely some of the more minor female characters are awesome).

I'm much more forgiving about male characters (maybe I just care about them less). I love the interesting male characters and pretty much ignore the boring ones.

I absolutely adore strong, interesting and fun female characters. One of the reasons I love highlander, they have fantastic canon female characters- Amanda (for example). Anyone who can write an intersting OFC has my admiration. For some reason I find female characters much harder to write than male, (which is why I write them so occasionally and so slowly). I have no idea why this should be, you would think it'd be the other way round.

PS absolutely agree Lana is a Mary Sue, I find her very irritating.

[pat-t.livejournal.com]

It's interesting that you named Amanda in Highlander as a strong interesting *un* Mary Sue character. In fact, she is the *ultimate* Mary Sue character.

Lets see - she's beautiful (and everyone on the show who sees her thinks she is). She flirts with all the male characters and they lose their minds, give into her and totally sell one another out. Look at Richie, Duncan and Joe. Even Methos gets a little funny around her.

She wears the skin tight clothes. Another woman wanted to be her so badly she changed her own hair and wardrobe to look like her.

No matter what she does, Duncan takes up for her - risks his life for her. Even when it hurt Tessa. Even though she's betrayed him and almost gotten him killed.

She somehow manages to outsmart, outcon, out flirt everyone so that she has managed to live over 1000 years.

She's just so pretty and perky and *perfect*. Rebecca looked over her trying to steal from her and still opened her arms to her. Even though she never showed us any great sword skills, she still won over all the big bad guys.

Duncan looked over *all* her moral shortcomings because she was just so irresistable.

You couldn't write a more perfect *fits the profile* Mary Sue.

Unless....

[fractured-sun.livejournal.com]

Yes but she's fun... so I don't care. Besides most of that is the facade she presents to the world.

[pat-t.livejournal.com]

She is fun, but she's the perfect Mary Sue by definition. And I'd have to disagree with the facade part. I think in all six seasons she has shown that is pretty consistently *her*. Not really a lot of layers under there. She's pretty superficial.

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

The reason I hate the term "Mary Sue" period no matter how it is applied is that it's either a) subjective -- a matter of the individual reader's idea of "perfect," b) about an arbitrary set of standards which are more about how cliche the character is than how perfect or c) it's about whether or not they're an original character being added by a fanfic writer into a canon series. I can be said Amanda isn't a Mary Sue because she's canon, of course then some people will trot out the term "canon-Sue." It can be argue whether or no she meets the standards of some litmus test designed for spotting fanfic Sues. It can be argued whether or not your idea of perfect is someone else's. I believe the term Mary Sue sucks.

[pat-t.livejournal.com]

I think most people hate the term. Yet, every so often it is trotted out along with the definition. It doesn't matter if it is canon or fanon. Look at some of the comments here in this thread. *So-and-so* couldn't be Mary Sue because Mary Sue by definition is X, Y, & Z. It's the same standard definition that fandom has been using for decades. The point I was making is that if we really want to go there, many of our favorite canon female characters fit that definition in spades.

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

I think most people hate the term.

It seems to me like a lot of people use it as an insult for any character they don't like.

The point I was making is that if we really want to go there, many of our favorite canon female characters fit that definition in spades.

Sorry. It seemed to me Ith was grumbling about Mary Sue being applied more to female characters then males, and when you singled out Amanda rather Duncan MacLeod or Methos it felt like you were doing exactly what Ith was grumbling about. I can handle most of the ways in which Duncan is a Mary Sue, but when they started talking about him as not just a hero but The Hero fifth season... I've only watched the whole of the Ahriman story arc once. I am deeply grateful Methos is only in the first episode.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

See, when a guy does it, he's the HERO, when a gal does it, she's a Mary Sue [g]

I was feeling grumbly last night, not so much today :) I think when comment threads get long, there tends to be some miscommunication along the way.

[beccadg.livejournal.com]

See, when a guy does it, he's the HERO, when a gal does it, she's a Mary Sue [g]

*Giggles.* Ooooh, and here I thought when Duncan become The Hero, or the Doctor The Lonely God they progressed from "classic Mary Sue" to "Goddess Mary Sue." Silly me. *Smacks forehead.*

I think when comment threads get long, there tends to be some miscommunication along the way.

*Nods.* Yeah, and when it's a subject I'm as touchy about as Mary Sue it's easy for me to react without really getting what someone is trying to say. *Blushes and ducks head.*

[pat-t.livejournal.com]

Unless....

You're writing Alexa. Ahhh, dear Alexa. Long blonde hair. Big blue eyes. Tiny, sweet little thing with such an engaging smile and tangy personality that Methos fell madly, passionately in love with her within 3 minutes of them meeting.

So in love that he was willing to throw in the Watchers, Duncan and buy two airline tickets to Paris so he could sweep her away and show her the world. Even if it meant he would have to come out of hiding.

Even her name is beautiful, Methos sighed as he became instantly obsessed and Gobsmacked with her perfection.

And, of course, she wasn't *just* a waitress. She had to be a *special* waitress that Joe cared about and watched over.

Those two (Amanda and Alexa were the ultimate *meets the definition word by word) of all Mary Sues.

There was one female character on Highlander who does *not* meet that definition. She was gorgeous, but she wasn't perfect. Other men didn't necessarily fall over themselves when they saw her. She was interesting and flawed and sometimes just a bit obnoxious. Duncan loved her, but you knew it was true love in spite of her faults. Not the *sees just so cute and makes me laugh* so I can't see her faults like Amanda.

I'm talking about Tessa. She was a spitfire. She got jealous. She didn't take any shit from our guy. She stayed up and worried about him when he didn't come home. And she had no problem being a snippy bitch when she was in a bad mood. She was real!

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

I love Amanda and Alexa, but yeah, I can see what you're getting at :)

[conjured-1.livejournal.com]

*cough*sputter*choke* Alexa is none other than Gillian Horvath personified into the perfect Mary Sue. Horvath had/has the hots for Methos (not Peter, but Methos) and thus Alexa was born. Getting paid to write what is essentially fan fic is cake, man. And for that, Horvath is one smart cookie!

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

Don't get me started on her! She's one of the few people I've ever gotten confrontational with at a con. This was related to Forever Knight, not Highlander, and we were at the same party. Lord, that woman ticks me off.

And since this isn't a locked post, I probably should shut up at this point!

[conjured-1.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm not saying I like her,or find anything redeeming about her (and I worked with her), what I'm saying is that she was smart enough to be able to write her fantasies and get paid for it. It happens a lot for men, not so much for women, so on that score she did well.

But then again, that was the whole point of the thread wasn't it... ;D

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

No, I didn't think you meant that [g] Otherwise, I would have been more tactful! Because I can be tactful. Honest.

And yes, that's exactly what the thread is about :)So by that count, you're right, she got away with something usually only men do.

[pat-t.livejournal.com]

I love Amanda too. I liked Alexa, but we never got much of an opportunity to know her very well. She had the potential of being a great character.

But if people are going to throw around the definition of "Mary Sue" and use such things as long hair and perfect bodies and our guys just falling all over themselves, yadda yadda - they fit the definition completely.

All Amanda had to do is rub up next to Richie and he was close to coming in his pants. He told her everything he knew. Joe was better off, but not by much. She had Duncan eating out of her hand even though she almost got him killed more than once. She could just do no wrong. Even when he was berating her it was more a *chuckle* gosh darn Amanda. Come here and let me love you - type of thing.

She was so perfect and pretty and special that another woman wanted to be *just like her*.

Yet, because of Liz's characterization, I adored the character. But by fandom's definition she is a Mary Sue.

[ithildyn.livejournal.com]

I have more trouble writing men, and I guess I'm just not as interested in men as I am in women. Not that I don't like men, but I think they get more than their share of attention.